Spirit of the rules

[Cam]

Like Monaco, I daresay RBR knew full well they were on borrowed time, time they've spent refining the replacement.

[raymondu999]

Mod edit - This topic was split from the RB8 tread ...
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Like Monaco, I daresay RBR knew full well they were on borrowed time, time they've spent refining the replacement.

"Like Monaco?" What happened in Monaco? The floor slits?

[Cam]

Yeah, the holes - which after 'clarification' needed to be slits. They knew full well they'd be banned once everyone twigged and we haven't seen them on the car since in any form. They already had another card up their sleeve and I reckon it's second verse, same as the first for this situation. They're a cluey bunch and seem to be at least one to two steps ahead each time. They don't even try to fight it, they say 'okay, no problem, we have clarification', it's as though they know it's coming.

[GrizzleBoy]

Yeah, the holes - which after 'clarification' needed to be slits. They knew full well they'd be banned once everyone twigged and we haven't seen them on the car since in any form. They already had another card up their sleeve and I reckon it's second verse, same as the first for this situation. They're a cluey bunch and seem to be at least one to two steps ahead each time. They don't even try to fight it, they say 'okay, no problem, we have clarification', it's as though they know it's coming.

Well they're pretty much getting away with not complying with the "spirit of the rules" every time tbh.

What harm is a "clarification" if that clarification always comes AFTER you've used your current methods to assist in gaining you those vital championship points?

[raymondu999]

Well they're pretty much getting away with not complying with the "spirit of the rules" every time tbh.

The issue is that the teams make the cars to the letter of the regs - not the spirit of them; not to mention the spirit of the rules is very dicey as it's very much based upon personal interpretation

[Nando]

Well they're pretty much getting away with not complying with the "spirit of the rules" every time tbh.

The issue is that the teams make the cars to the letter of the regs - not the spirit of them; not to mention the spirit of the rules is very dicey as it's very much based upon personal interpretation

Well not really

Spirit of the rules = ban RBR, Ferrari, Mclaren, Caterham etc exhausts they all break the spirit of the rules and their only purpose is to get exhaust flow in between the rear wheel and floor.
Legal setups would be beam wing blown or rear wing blown setups if we strictly talk spirit of the rules.

[Huntresa]

And the FIA cant actually fine or ban someone cause of breaking the spirit of the rules, cause they would lose that court case right away, if its not a written rule in the regulations then you cant argue someone broke it.

[raymondu999]

Spirit of the rules = ban RBR, Ferrari, Mclaren, Caterham etc exhausts they all break the spirit of the rules

And what IS the spirit of the rules, and which FIA spokesperson told you that? We all have assumed - and are probably correct to a high degree of certainty - that that is the spirit of said rules. But put simply, we don't KNOW this.

Let's say then the FIA did release this "spirit" of the rules. How the hell do you police that? You know, courtrooms have a weird way of dumbing people down a lot. Did you know that if you get Tombazis, Prodromou, Iley and Oatley all in a courtroom, they all wouldn't see how their exhausts are benefitting them in any way?

The issue with the spirit is that you cannot make a qualitative rule no matter what, no matter where you do it, because it's very subjective. Say the FIA released a new set of regs for the exhaust for 2013. All the aero heads produce a design that they honestly believe is FULLY within the regs and within this spirit. Suddenly an FIA delegate comes along and judges them to be illegal - what then? Such qualitative markers such as the spirit of the rules is not policeable - you need something concrete and quantitative for it to be policeable.

[Nando]

Spirit of the rules = ban RBR, Ferrari, Mclaren, Caterham etc exhausts they all break the spirit of the rules

And what IS the spirit of the rules, and which FIA spokesperson told you that? We all have assumed - and are probably correct to a high degree of certainty - that that is the spirit of said rules. But put simply, we don't KNOW this.

Let's say then the FIA did release this "spirit" of the rules. How the hell do you police that? You know, courtrooms have a weird way of dumbing people down a lot. Did you know that if you get Tombazis, Prodromou, Iley and Oatley all in a courtroom, they all wouldn't see how their exhausts are benefitting them in any way?

The issue with the spirit is that you cannot make a qualitative rule no matter what, no matter where you do it, because it's very subjective. Say the FIA released a new set of regs for the exhaust for 2013. All the aero heads produce a design that they honestly believe is FULLY within the regs and within this spirit. Suddenly an FIA delegate comes along and judges them to be illegal - what then? Such qualitative markers such as the spirit of the rules is not policeable - you need something concrete and quantitative for it to be policeable.

Charlie Whiting decides what is in the spirit of the rules.
He already took a look at all exhaust setups in pre-season testing and declared them within the spirit of the rules.
However i think he was a bit lenient as he undoubtedly must have wondered about Ferrari´s acer ducts which was pointed at the area that was banned.
And not to mention the vast sea of solutions that exist now. In my opinion if the goal of the rules was to get exhaust gases away from the diffuser then they should ban 90% of the exhaust layouts.

There is no question RBR´s exhaust has one single goal. That is to guide exhaust gases down to the difusser.
You don´t need "proof" of that, you only need common sense.

the spirit of the rule means the goal of the rule.
Same with RBR engine maps, they weren´t illegal but clearly against the spirit of the rules.

They found a loophole which was against the spirit of the rules, hence the ban.

[Nando]

I guarantee you NONE of the designers in F1 really cares about spirit of the rules. They only care about the black and white.

Spirit of the rules is up to Charlie to decide, not the teams.

[raymondu999]

I guarantee you NONE of the designers in F1 really cares about spirit of the rules. They only care about the black and white.

That's what I'm saying. Charlie (assuming no dictatorial power) cannot say, "This is illegal, because this is not what I meant when I did up the rules." The teams would just say "well then write what you mean!" and to which point then they would need to be put in black and white anyways.

You cite the RBR exhaust as an example. Yes, all of us in the know, know that they're using coanda to guide the exhaust to the diffuser. But I'm willing to bet that if Newey is brought to the WMSC over this, he will claim he had no knowledge of the coanda effect - he simply tried his best to design an unobtrusive exhaust that complied with every single letter of the regulations to every last dot of ink.

I agree with everything you're saying, but unfortunately in this reality we live in, the "spirit" of the rules is neither enforceable, nor policeable.

[Huntresa]

Yeah Charlie has a say but not final word, he is just FIAs person on the ground.

[Richard]

Of course this has been previously discussed. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7180

It has also done to death in various threads about the flexible wings, DDD, F duct, etc...

[Nando]

But I'm willing to bet that if Newey is brought to the WMSC over this, he will claim he had no knowledge of the coanda effect - he simply tried his best to design an unobtrusive exhaust that complied with every single letter of the regulations to every last dot of ink.

True, but spirit of the rules is above any regulations from what i understand.
Meaning even if something is perfectly legal it can still be deemed illegal because it breaches the spirit of the rules.

So to me it would look like Newey has to explain where the exhaust gases are designed to go.
I think he would have a hard time making a u-turn with his finger has he shows the FIA where the gases go.
Not to mention the intakes which is more or less proof of the fact that they are indeed trying to get the gases down there.

Let´s say Renault, Mercedes and Williams decide to protest. What is the most likely outcome of this do you think?

[Cam]

"Spirit of the rules" doesn't play a part in sport (well, maybe when you're 3). You either abide by the rules or you don't. You ether comply or you don't.

Organisations making changes to regulations via clarifications based on 'the spirit of intended regulations' are simply moving the goal posts in order to effect the overall outcome. In any other instance it would be seen as corrupt. It amounts to race fixing.

F1 is no longer about cars competing on track, it's now almost exclusively competing in a stewards room against the FIA.

May the best team win. What a joke it's become.