Mercedes AMG F1 W03

[siskue2005]

Is it true what that article says about Mercedes, Williams and Lotus now not being able to modify their exhausts as any modification would require new engine maps?

Yes it is, to use the coanda-effect more efficient you need to have a good engine mapping. Those teams wouldn't have a good mapping because they didn't used one since back 4 races.

how can we know they didnt use it? are they extrapolating it based only because they had conventional exhaust layout in the first 4 races?
If so i tend to disagree, what if they had normal exhaust and wanted more blowing from them and really had a strong blowing eninge map? isnt it possible?

[Huntresa]

Is it true what that article says about Mercedes, Williams and Lotus now not being able to modify their exhausts as any modification would require new engine maps?

Yes it is, to use the coanda-effect more efficient you need to have a good engine mapping. Those teams wouldn't have a good mapping because they didn't used one since back 4 races.

how can we know they didnt use it? are they extrapolating it based only because they had conventional exhaust layout in the first 4 races?
If so i tend to disagree, what if they had normal exhaust and wanted more blowing from them and really had a strong blowing eninge map? isnt it possible?

I say the same, we dont know what maps they used in the first 4 races.

[hardingfv32]

You are assuming the exhaust length would change it they changed to Coanda Effect. That might not be the case.

Brian

[siskue2005]

Sry didnt get it, You are saying exhaust length will change if they go for Mclaren style exhaust?

[turbof1]

Strange enough is that even though Lotus like Mercedes does not use the coanda and downwash effects, they seem to have more or less the DF levels RBR, Ferrari and McLaren have.Perhaps Lotus has their internal airflow better managed then Mercedes?

[Huntresa]

Yeah the Lotus car has a gr8 internal airflow, Allison said that was one big feature they focused on for this years car.

[MSC07-JCGX]

for the pirelli tyres key to working the tyres are having a softer rear end less stress on the tyres

It is obviously nowhere near as simple as that - or teams woudl've figured it out a while back

oh i agree but i'm just saying the w03 is quite soft at the front and at the rear the don't have good downforce compared to the other top teams, i think it's more or less hopeless for this year

[zyphro]

for the pirelli tyres key to working the tyres are having a softer rear end less stress on the tyres

It is obviously nowhere near as simple as that - or teams woudl've figured it out a while back

oh i agree but i'm just saying the w03 is quite soft at the front and at the rear the don't have good downforce compared to the other top teams, i think it's more or less hopeless for this year

We'll have to wait and see.

[ReLax]

Is it true what that article says about Mercedes, Williams and Lotus now not being able to modify their exhausts as any modification would require new engine maps?

Yes it is, to use the coanda-effect more efficient you need to have a good engine mapping. Those teams wouldn't have a good mapping because they didn't used one since back 4 races.

how can we know they didnt use it? are they extrapolating it based only because they had conventional exhaust layout in the first 4 races?
If so i tend to disagree, what if they had normal exhaust and wanted more blowing from them and really had a strong blowing eninge map? isnt it possible?

Imho they don't use the effect. They only want to smooth the airflow to the rear of the car, to have a smooth airflow over the diffusor and in the coke bottle area, Brawn mentioned it a while ago.
The Coanda-Effect, I have to admit Im only studying Biologie and no physics, is only interesting when you use those "sideopenings" like McLaren or Rb. Maybe Iam totally wrong, but isn't it that the coanda-Effect is about attaching an airflow to an surface?

[marcush.]

it´s not just the length but the diameter as well...I ´m very sure you can´t just stick a different exhaust to it without adapting the mapping.

[hardingfv32]

it´s not just the length but the diameter as well...I ´m very sure you can´t just stick a different exhaust to it without adapting the mapping.

What is the concern with diameter? Is it thought that the Coanda Effect systems might use a small than 75mm opening?

Brian

[hollus]

it´s not just the length but the diameter as well...I ´m very sure you can´t just stick a different exhaust to it without adapting the mapping.

What is the concern with diameter? Is it thought that the Coanda Effect systems might use a small than 75mm opening?

Brian

Please expand.

[marcush.]

the story says the Coanda exhaust feature considerably smaller diameters to speed up the flow at lower revs to achieve a broader range of the exhaust working as an aero help-at the expense of a fair amount of top end power.
If you stick on a this much different exhaust to your engine ..I´d assume the map for the big endpipe diameter map is very different to the small diameter map.

[hardingfv32]

the story says the Coanda exhaust feature considerably smaller diameters to speed up the flow at lower revs to achieve a broader range of the exhaust working as an aero help-at the expense of a fair amount of top end power.
If you stick on a this much different exhaust to your engine ..I´d assume the map for the big endpipe diameter map is very different to the small diameter map.

1) In all our discussions about the Coanda Effect style exhaust systems, I do not recall anything about exhaust outlet size. I can appreciate that a smaller size would have a different effect, but I am not sure that you characterize the benefit correctly. I would say some discussion is required.

2) The new rule controls torque output. There is no reason that you can not change the exhaust and then correct for it with your engine map to get back to the baseline torque.

Brian

[alvinkhorfire]

I am sorry if this article was posted before.

As you may have correctly guessed, the recent slump in car performance is because they have tried to overly optimize the car setup based on double DRS.

Source: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19064856
Why Mercedes are struggling
That's because they have developed themselves in a direction to go slower, all because they have been trying to get more consistency from the rear tyres to help race performance. And that is linked to the 'double DRS'.

HOW HAVE MERCEDES TRIED TO FIX IT?
To solve that rear tyre wear problem, since the Canadian Grand Prix in mid-June Mercedes have removed quite a lot of the downforce-producing devices on the front wing and are never running anywhere near maximum front wing angle.

That reduces the amount of front grip. They've probably lost something like 50-60kg of front downforce so they are running the centre of aerodynamic pressure much further rearward.

The benefit of that is that it will balance the car better so tyre degradation will reduce. But it comes at the cost of a slower overall pace. So the car feels better to drive, but is slower.

HOW CAN MERCEDES SOLVE THE PROBLEM?
Mercedes have a very conventional rear-end aerodynamic treatment and are not trying to exploit the exhaust gases for aerodynamic effect in the way McLaren, Ferrari and Red Bull are.

There is 0.2-0.3 seconds a lap in trying to do that - all produced from greater rear-end grip.

So if Mercedes want to improve, they would be better advised to build that kind of exhaust system. That would give them better rear-end grip, which would enable them to put the front downforce back on without suffering the rear instability they had earlier in the year.

If I was them, I would be thinking very seriously about getting rid of the 'double DRS', unless I was absolutely on top of which circuits it will provide a benefit at and which it will create a deficit.