Water tank instead of mass damper?

[manchild]

Does this make any sense? I mean since driver's drinking liquid tank capacitly isn't limited by FIA reagulations couldn't teams build larger liquid tank 10~15 liters and position further up front in the cockpit? I'm suggesting this having in mint that water tanks on high buildings are located on top for same purpose - to act as mass damper.



Or perhaps even this? If Ferrari can claim that aerodynamic wheel covers are to improove brake cooling than some other team could use this and say that sprigs are there to prevent foaming of driver's drinking liquid under vibrations of the car.



BTW, could such tank be located in the nose cone? Would it be according to FIA regulations?

[Sawtooth-spike]

now you thinking like ferrari!

[Ciro Pabón]

Manchild, you surprise me. What about using loose uniforms to see if something wiggles? Maybe you could tune "it" to the bumps in the road C'mon, guys, don't take me wrong. I'm talking about the old and well known DTBB "concept": dinamically tuned beer bellies.

[Mikey_s]

MC,

a couple of 'knee-jerk' responses... the density of water is comparatively low (compared to a heavy metal). Furthermore, whilst the damping part of the TMD would involve some sort of viscous component to dissipate the energy, I think water sloshing about would lead to some undesireable after effects. I think the key to the Renault system was the 'tuneable' element...

I was thinking along the lines of some sort of gyroscope... spinning in a particular direction to resist vertical motion, anyone understand gyroscopes? could one be tuned to only react to certain directional (vertical) changes?

[Ian P.]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

Gyroscopes work on "precession", see above.
They require both a rotating mass and a force to cause rotation about the axis.
While it all sounds sooooo complex, it is really pretty simple.
Get hold of a bicycle wheel (fronts are best, without the bike attached) and holding one end of the axel, wheel upright, spin the wheel. Now you will feel the wheel trying to turn around you.
Predicting the motion is also pretty easy. Taking your index finger (not that one... the first finger) imagine it as an indicator of right handed spin. That is the direction of a spinning object (wheel in this case) is clockwise from the finger's perspective. To generate a gyroscopic force, you need to apply a torque perpendicular to the axis of rotation. Use your left hand (index again) finger to indicate a torque in the same direction.
Now back to the bike wheel, holding the axel end in your left hand, spin the wheel with the right hand so it is rotating clockwise as you look at it. The force of gravity will apply a torque to the wheel to make it fall away from you...BUT... the gyroscopic effect will make the wheel turn into you and whack you on the nose.
You can use this to predict why a motorcycle (speedway bikes for example) will slide out with the back wheel when you push the bike hard down to the left or right. It also helps in understanding the effects of different engine rotation directions both in cars and bikes.
Appologies for the long discussion, but this shows the use of a gyroscope to dampen vertical vibration would be diffcult and complex. Definitly moveable balast.
The idea of a fluid tank is more likely a better way to go.

Ian P

[Saribro]

BTW, could such tank be located in the nose cone? Would it be according to FIA regulations?

9 liters of water is hard to fit in there I think. Plus, on a nose-replacement, it would be nasty to reconnect the new tank (otherwise it would be hard to claim as drinkwater tank :D)

[Carlos]

Manchild---Have you been reading the Art of War lately? Ian P---another grear idea. Mikey...S---good tech-info---Ciro: I don't suffer this middle age development yet--- at least , not to a marked degree.

My first immediate thought is a large open-case electric motor, with a heavy armature, and make the armature with fins-as a fan---position this device on the proper axis for gyroscopic-suspension dampening effect---
and tell the F!A--- IT IS A BRAKE COOLING DEVICE.

Very good working with you all. I thought 2 heads were better than one.
But we have just demonstrated that 8 ,,,,,, well you understand my meaning.

[Carlos]

Hook it up to a supercapacitor ( somhow or other ) add a circuit board to
supervise an electric current regeneration system ( when under braking )to store the energy--- and we have a hybrid--- The FIA will cetainly approve of that!

Just a fantasy.

[pompelmo]

Iz's nice idea =D> but water in good "mass damper" for low frequences "shakings" and it has to be a loot od it, thats why it's good for buildings and not good for F1

[manchild]

Iz's nice idea =D> but water in good "mass damper" for low frequences "shakings" and it has to be a loot od it, thats why it's good for buildings and not good for F1

Would this prevent shaking?


Basically two "pistons" - one as the bottom of tank and the other as the top of tank. Both moving freely, no air in tank since space of fluid that gets consumed by driver wouldn’t be replaced by air because “pistons” would get closer under pressure of the springs.

*Pistons=black wide-H shaped parts on the sketch l-------------l

[theSuit]

What's the point of a harmonic damper that you can't tune accurately and whose tuning varies as the driver drinks?

[manchild]

What's the point of a harmonic damper that you can't tune accurately and whose tuning varies as the driver drinks?

Springs can be made different depending on track demands and also they can be fine tuned by streaching or expanding just as on any racing suspension.

[theSuit]

And that's not going to deal with the ill defined damping within the water.
Or the fact that the mass is varying.

You can't (now) have harmonic damping in F1. And if you're not limiting yourself to the F1 rules then you can achieve better results using variable damping or springing in the suspension, as is done on some road cars. So why waste mass and space on an more primitive option?

[Ciro Pabón]

So why waste mass and space on an more primitive option?

Because it is funny? Imagine: every time you drink a sip of water, you have to pray not to go over a kerb, or the water will reach your ...

There were some "serious" suggestions about a "free weight" inside the shock absorbers in some other thread. Some people (ehem..., look at me, look at me!) suggested a monochamber shock absorber with a double "free piston", but "we" were not able to figure out for sure if, being horizontal, it would work. Easy to disguise, hard to police... Besides, MC has a history of extremely good ideas, that later on, somehow, in a twisted way are used in F1 (sinchronicity?).

[joseff]

There were some "serious" suggestions about a "free weight" inside the shock absorbers in some other thread.

Ron Dennis mentioned about having "a similar system" but built into the suspension. Hmmm....

MC has a history of extremely good ideas, that later on, somehow, in a twisted way are used in F1

Because he is Mike Gascoyne's alter ego. You'll see this tank on next year's Spyker.