Jackie Stewart F1 legends question (aka is F1 too safe)

[SeijaKessen]

Isn't that what being a racing driver is all about?

Yeah, it's all about dying in a flaming car.

Don't be so dramatic barlow.

It's all relative to how you view it.

They all knew the risks that were involved, including this kicker...racing might kill you. In fact there was a good chance it would kill you.

I don't know if you live in the US at all. If you do, then you would certainly be aware of the issues regarding concussions, life-spans, and the NFL. You know what is interesting? Most of the players are more than willing to accept the risks involved and want to play the game anyway.

If you know the risks, then it is your choice to take part in it.

You cannot fault them for it because they do so full well knowing what may be waiting for them at the end of the road.

There's a bit too much sensitivity these days, and this desire to protect everyone from themselves. I have the opposite viewpoint. As long as the person is informed of the negative aspects of their choice regarding the situation, they are free to have at it. If an informed choice can be made, then that's all that matters.

Don't kid yourself barlow. If the F1 season next season was to be conducted in unsafe cars and on unsafe tracks, for all the bitching you would hear, at least half of them would man up and drive anyway. Why? Because the siren song of glory would ultimately matter more.

"To do something well is so worthwhile that to die trying to do it better cannot be foolhardy. It would be a waste of life to do nothing with one's ability, for I feel that life is measured in achievement, not in years alone." -Bruce McLaren

That says it all.

[Richard]

What you are complaining about is nothing to do with drivers being sissies, it's due to the regulations and technology.

The dominance of aero makes it hard for cars to pass each other, hence the need for DRS and KERS. Nowadays the cars are stuck to the road compared to the F1 cars sliding around corners in the B&W films.

The convergence of technology means cars are much more evenly matched and much more reliable. Cars are reliably lapping within hundredths of a second compared to the relatively haphazard reliability in the early days of the sport. Hence the move to less durable tyres.

Put today's drivers in cars with the variability & grip of previous eras and you'll have the same style of racing as those eras. It would need manual gearboxes, carburettors, tyres that slide on corners, parts that randomly disintegrate, and no telemetry. It'd be fun but not worthy of modern F1.

[SeijaKessen]

What you are complaining about is nothing to do with drivers being sissies, it's due to the regulations and technology.

The dominance of aero makes it hard for cars to pass each other, hence the need for DRS and KERS. Nowadays the cars are stuck to the road compared to the F1 cars sliding around corners in the B&W films.

The convergence of technology means cars are much more evenly matched and much more reliable. Cars are reliably lapping within hundredths of a second compared to the relatively haphazard reliability in the early days of the sport. Hence the move to less durable tyres.

Put today's drivers in cars with the variability & grip of previous eras and you'll have the same style of racing as those eras. It would need manual gearboxes, carburettors, tyres that slide on corners, parts that randomly disintegrate, and no telemetry. It'd be fun but not worthy of modern F1.

Then why is it, in the 29 years since he did it, no one has been able to come within 30 seconds of what Bellof did at the Nordschleife in spite of all the technology?

Think about that...with all the advances we've seen, not a single car has managed to do better than 6:47.

Also...as far as the cars being more evenly matched as a result of technology?

That's not quite accurate.

If you reduce any race series to something bordering on a spec race, it's a lot easier to have the cars evenly matched.

Take away a lot of the restrictions, and see what happens to how evenly the cars are matched.

As far as the aero goes and passing, even when F1 was not aero dominant, it was never easy to pass unless your car was much faster than an opponent's car. Mechanical grip has a lot more to do with that...you see more passing when the levels of mechanical grip vary the way they do this season. The optimal operating windows being so small nearly ensure no one will be in the peak window at the same time, hence more overtaking when combined with the two gimmicks.

[Nando]

6.11 not 6.47

And it´s not anything that stops anyone of beating it. Heidfeld techincally could have demolished it with the F1.08
BMW Engineers expect that you could set a time of around 5.15s

But let me guess. This was all Bellof right? Not the Porsche as well?

[SeijaKessen]

6.11 not 6.47

And it´s not anything that stops anyone of beating it. Heidfeld techincally could have demolished it with the F1.08
BMW Engineers expect that you could set a time of around 5.15s

But let me guess. This was all Bellof right? Not the Porsche as well?

Yes, and not a single car since May 29, 1983 has done better than 6:47 around the Nordschleife, which is what the 6:47 was referring to. It took the Zonda R to do that with the benefit of nearly 30 years in technological advances. That was only 11 seconds faster than what Niki Lauda did in the 312 back in 1975. Not really what you would expect with almost 4 decades passed, no?

But, if nothing stops anyone from beating it, then why hasn't anyone...?

I could think of no finer lap record to own than that of the Nordschleife.

It was all Bellof. People forget Derek Bell went out there before him and turned in a 6:41, and then Bellof goes out and demolishes that by 30 seconds.

[SeijaKessen]

Nice video for anyone interested.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SELu8sIJGHo[/youtube]

[Nando]

6.11 not 6.47

And it´s not anything that stops anyone of beating it. Heidfeld techincally could have demolished it with the F1.08
BMW Engineers expect that you could set a time of around 5.15s

But let me guess. This was all Bellof right? Not the Porsche as well?

Yes, and not a single car since May 29, 1983 has done better than 6:47 around the Nordschleife, which is what the 6:47 was referring to. It took the Zonda R to do that with the benefit of nearly 30 years in technological advances. That was only 11 seconds faster than what Niki Lauda did in the 312 back in 1975. Not really what you would expect with almost 4 decades passed, no?

But, if nothing stops anyone from beating it, then why hasn't anyone...?

I could think of no finer lap record to own than that of the Nordschleife.

It was all Bellof. People forget Derek Bell went out there before him and turned in a 6:41, and then Bellof goes out and demolishes that by 30 seconds.

6:48 Radical SR8. It´s not about what materials you use to build the car.
Nobody has beaten it because nobody has ever pursued it. Again...an F1 car would completely destroy the time.

Group C cars had basically no regulations. You had no horsepower limit, only a fuel limit.
His Porsche was rumored to run 800 horses. With only 800kg´s in weight you have a pretty substantial advantage then let´s say a Pagani Zonda R with only 600 horses (CLK GTR engine) and an extra 200kg´s to lug around.
Then add less downforce and basic physics will tell you it´s impossible for the Zonda to keep up with a Group C car.

But i´ll leave you with the "unbeatable, unhuman Bellof who could do what no other human being can".

[Richard]

Take away a lot of the restrictions, and see what happens to how evenly the cars are matched.

I was talking about convergence, ie law of diminishing returns. Take away the restrictions and the teams will rapidly converge on the optimum solution for the new rules within a couple of years. This is accelerated by computer power running umpteen simulations and evolutionary algorithms.

[SeijaKessen]

6.11 not 6.47

And it´s not anything that stops anyone of beating it. Heidfeld techincally could have demolished it with the F1.08
BMW Engineers expect that you could set a time of around 5.15s

But let me guess. This was all Bellof right? Not the Porsche as well?

Yes, and not a single car since May 29, 1983 has done better than 6:47 around the Nordschleife, which is what the 6:47 was referring to. It took the Zonda R to do that with the benefit of nearly 30 years in technological advances. That was only 11 seconds faster than what Niki Lauda did in the 312 back in 1975. Not really what you would expect with almost 4 decades passed, no?

But, if nothing stops anyone from beating it, then why hasn't anyone...?

I could think of no finer lap record to own than that of the Nordschleife.

It was all Bellof. People forget Derek Bell went out there before him and turned in a 6:41, and then Bellof goes out and demolishes that by 30 seconds.

6:48 Radical SR8. It´s not about what materials you use to build the car.
Nobody has beaten it because nobody has ever pursued it. Again...an F1 car would completely destroy the time.

Group C cars had basically no regulations. You had no horsepower limit, only a fuel limit.
His Porsche was rumored to run 800 horses. With only 800kg´s in weight you have a pretty substantial advantage then let´s say a Pagani Zonda R with only 600 horses (CLK GTR engine) and an extra 200kg´s to lug around.
Then add less downforce and basic physics will tell you it´s impossible for the Zonda to keep up with a Group C car.

But i´ll leave you with the "unbeatable, unhuman Bellof who could do what no other human being can".

6:48 is not better than 6:47.

An F1 car would probably destroy it...however we still haven't seen it happen.

Thus it's completely irrelevant currently.

The day we see a F1 car do it is the day it will matter.

Also you are wrong about the Zonda R's HP. The Merc engine output was increased to 740HP.

Rumors are rumors. If you can definitely provide proof that his 956 was running 800HP on May 29, 1983, please show me.

Please do not attribute false statements to me with that made-up, sarcastic quote of yours. I did not do it to you, so I'm not sure why you are doing it to me. Thanks.

[SeijaKessen]

Take away a lot of the restrictions, and see what happens to how evenly the cars are matched.

I was talking about convergence, ie law of diminishing returns. Take away the restrictions and the teams will rapidly converge on the optimum solution for the new rules within a couple of years. This is accelerated by computer power running umpteen simulations and evolutionary algorithms.

The optimum solution being achieved by the teams assumes all budgets are equal.

But this is why there is an importance in constantly changing the rules as opposed to locking everything in place as they have been for the past few years.

[Nando]

6:48 is not better than 6:47.

...

An F1 car would probably destroy it...however we still haven't seen it happen.

I don´t think we have to because we know that an F1 car would destroy it.

The day we see a F1 car do it is the day it will matter.

Because only then it will be true?

Also you are wrong about the Zonda R's HP. The Merc engine output was increased to 740HP.

My mistake. But you are still at least 50 horses down, and 200kg´s in weight. And probably downforce.

Rumors are rumors. If you can definitely provide proof that his 956 was running 800HP on May 29, 1983, please show me.

I can´t, it could be running a thousand horses for all we know. That was what was rumored though.

Please do not attribute false statements to me with that made-up, sarcastic quote of yours. I did not do it to you, so I'm not sure why you are doing it to me. Thanks.

Sounds like a true statement to me. You think todays driver´s are pussies that would not dare step into a Group C car and do what Bellof did.

Horsesh*t is what i say. Excuse the language.

[SeijaKessen]

1) When a F1 car laps the 'Ring in 5:15 in the real world, please let me know. As much as I like alternative reality scenarios, they mean nothing until it actually happens. Saying and doing something are two completely different things, as I am sure you are aware of...or maybe not based on where this entire conversation has gone through your doing.

2) Provide me with proof the 956 was running 800HP on May 29, 1983.

3) Until you can provide proof that it was, then your statement that the Zonda R was down by "at least 50 horses" is not factually correct, so refrain from making up things please.

4) Again, you simply lied and made up something I never said.

You know, the one thing I've noticed with you around here is when people don't agree with you --Belgian GP thread as an example-- you start getting pissy and try to make things personal. It's a shame what could have been a normal conversation, hasn't turned out that way due to your unwarranted hostility.

[Richard]

mod: Please don't get personal, and the endless quotes are getting hard to read! /mod

Right, back to the conversation (which has nothing to do with arguing about the hp of a Porche in 1983)

...


The changes of 2009 were probably the most radical for a long time but even then we saw convergence of the top teams by mid season, most notably McLaren.

So to get back to your original point, I think convergence due to maturing technology prevents drivers from the dramatic racing you are talking about. We can see it many walks of life - technology matures, developments plateau and differences become more subtle. You can't blame the drivers for being sissies, their driving style is a product of their cars.

So lets get onto the Nordschleife issue. We all agree that a modern F1 car could demolish the current lap record. I think you are really asking why no driver/team has tried to set a fast time since 1983? It just needs a team to put their mind to it. The reason they don't isn't because they are sissies, it is simply that there are more rewarding challenges (financial and emotional) elsewhere, such as the Race of Champions.

[SeijaKessen]

mod: Please don't get personal, and the endless quotes are getting hard to read! /mod

Right, back to the conversation (which has nothing to do with arguing about the hp of a Porche in 1983)

...


The changes of 2009 were probably the most radical for a long time but even then we saw convergence of the top teams by mid season, most notably McLaren.

So to get back to your original point, I think convergence due to maturing technology prevents drivers from the dramatic racing you are talking about. We can see it many walks of life - technology matures, developments plateau and differences become more subtle. You can't blame the drivers for being sissies, their driving style is a product of their cars.

So lets get onto the Nordschleife issue. We all agree that a modern F1 car could demolish the current lap record. I think you are really asking why no driver/team has tried to set a fast time since 1983? It just needs a team to put their mind to it. The reason they don't isn't because they are sissies, it is simply that there are more rewarding challenges (financial and emotional) elsewhere, such as the Race of Champions.

I come from the school of thought where all the talk in the world doesn't mean anything, unless you go out and prove it.

Saying and doing are obviously two different things.

On this planet, the Nordschleife is the absolute pinnacle as far as race circuits go...I can't really think of anything more emotionally satisfying than bending that track to your will and owning the fastest lap time there.

Some of the greatest challenges are the ones that have no financial reward involved.

But that's more of a philosophical debate.

Anyway, regarding technology, the perhaps more difficult aspect with technology is that one never knows what is going to be discovered down the road on that front. Certainly I agree that jumps in technology historically speaking, now are much less than they were in the past. If you took someone from 1900 and stuck them in 1969, there is going to be a greater shock value involved compared to if you took someone from 1969 and stuck them in 2009. We've spent more time over the past few decades refining a lot of existing technologies. Events as monumental as splitting the atom are less likely right now. But there have always been times were certain things were simply unimaginable, and I have no doubt there are things that will exist 100 years from now that we cannot fathom at this point.

Of course as this all relates to F1, it's important to have a constantly changing rule book to prevent a plateau as we are seeing now amongst the top teams. Don't forget too, that in spite of all of the knowledge that exists, teams opt to do things differently, even though some things are on the subtle side of things. The rules right now, unfortunately exist as a bottleneck of sorts.

By the way, I think the Race of Champions is utter crap. That whole indoor arena thing is dull, and not particularly interesting to me.

Just stick everyone in go-karts and let them have at it...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D0Sg8it4 ... re=related[/youtube]

[strad]

I don't think a modern F1 car could run flat out around the old Ring cause it couldn't live thru the bumps and the jumps.
And the drivers have said they don't have the balls to have raced in the old days.
In my opinion, not one of todays drivers would drive if they knew they had a 20% chance of dying. They all grew up in an era of being frightened of life let alone dying.