Jackie Stewart F1 legends question (aka is F1 too safe)

[SeijaKessen]

Also Nando, the tracks have been so neutered in many regards, that the risk that existed in the past on certain tracks is no more.

Kind of hard to have the same risk at Spa that once existed, when many areas have been turned into parking lots for drivers to recover quickly.

Look at Vettel at Hockenheim.

If there was just grass and gravel where he made that illegal overtake on Button, he never attempts that move.

Again completely 100% irrelevant.

As i´ve said, the safety regulations has changed, humans haven´t.
Certain human beings is willing to risk their life in whatever way they please. Racing included.
It´s always been like this and probably always will be.

Show us the quotes as well. I´d like to read the whole interview/article if possible.

They don't risk their lives out there anymore the way they used to.

A little rain comes along and half of them are crying for red flags.

Barriers close to the track? They whine about how dangerous it is.

A sport that once was populated by men and gentlemen in the truest sense, has sadly been reduced on some levels to a bunch of whiny, teen-angst drivers.

[timbo]

Nobody ever raced with a 20% chance of dying.

Really???
at least 11 I can think of in the 60s an 10 off the top of my head in the 70s
What percentage do you figure that is?
Stewart and others have figured it as high as 25%
Back then they rode with death on their shoulder.

There were 14 fatalies out of 220+ drivers competing during '60s.

[timbo]

A sport that once was populated by men and gentlemen in the truest sense, has sadly been reduced on some levels to a bunch of whiny, teen-angst drivers.

So, you would prefer drivers dying for your entertainment?

[Nando]

“The cars are easier to drive. You don't look at these guys and think 'they are real men'. They are talented, no question, but there is less in common. There is power steering now, [and] a lot of things that make the cars easier to drive. That's why these youngsters can get away with it." -Mark Webber

Easier to drive under the limit but i beg to differ they are on the ragged egde.

You did not need reflexes like a snake back then. Rear end steps out, no problem the slip angle is ridiculous anyways.
More work yes but driving a modern F1 car in the wet for example compared to the old cars is like night and day.

[Richard]

We have unprecedented levels of professionalism and reliability. What need is there for a hero in the car who can wrestle with a failing gear box while maintaining lap times without crashing? After all today's cars no longer have manual boxes, and the driver needs skills to reconfigure them from the steering wheel at 200mph rather than using brute force on a stick.

The reason that we no longer see heroic driving is because there is no competitive advantage in being heroic. It's not needed now, the cars are reliable and stay on track. A technically orientated diver is likely to more successful than a hero.

If you want to see more cars sliding off track then you need less aero and worse tyres. If you want to to see a heroic solo effort by a man in a machine then we need to half the number in the pit crew and ban telemetry & radios. You'd get 60's style racing with man battling against machine, cars crashing in every race and tyres disintegrating at high speed. Then drivers with heroic traits would gain competitive advantage over those with technical traits. The heros would return. But it don't need to have fatalities to achieve that goal, this time the drivers would be able to walk away and do it again.

...

For the avoidance of doubt, I do agree that the old style racing was more dramatic and relied on heroism not needed these days. You can't blame the drivers for providing the skills needed by today's formula.

[Nando]

They don't risk their lives out there anymore the way they used to.

A little rain comes along and half of them are crying for red flags.

Barriers close to the track? They whine about how dangerous it is.

A sport that once was populated by men and gentlemen in the truest sense, has sadly been reduced on some levels to a bunch of whiny, teen-angst drivers.

Again, completely irrelevant to the mentality of human beings.

Yes they cry on the radio when you either aqua-plane or can´t see anything.
Also a gazillion times harder today then back then. It´s a different world all together.

Oh really? Anyone complained about Monaco? Geez....

[SeijaKessen]

A sport that once was populated by men and gentlemen in the truest sense, has sadly been reduced on some levels to a bunch of whiny, teen-angst drivers.

So, you would prefer drivers dying for your entertainment?

Who said anything about wanting drivers dying for my entertainment?

Do you like to make-up viewpoints and attribute them to people falsely because you don't quite understand where some of us are coming from?

[SeijaKessen]

“The cars are easier to drive. You don't look at these guys and think 'they are real men'. They are talented, no question, but there is less in common. There is power steering now, [and] a lot of things that make the cars easier to drive. That's why these youngsters can get away with it." -Mark Webber

Easier to drive under the limit but i beg to differ they are on the ragged egde.

You did not need reflexes like a snake back then. Rear end steps out, no problem the slip angle is ridiculous anyways.
More work yes but driving a modern F1 car in the wet for example compared to the old cars is like night and day.

I think I'll listen to Mark Webber over you to be quite honest.

Schumacher said the cars are easier than ever to drive as well.

I suppose you know more than the two of them though?

Any chance we'll see you on the starting grid come Melbourne 2013?

[timbo]

Who said anything about wanting drivers dying for my entertainment?

But don't you attribute gentleman spirit to risk taking? You would enjoy gentlemanship?

Do you like to make-up viewpoints and attribute them to people falsely because you don't quite understand where some of us are coming from?

Where did I make up a viewpoint? I asked you a question.

As for not understanding where you are coming from, I concur, I frankly can't understand how a person with Ayrton Senna on avatar can complain about drivers not taking enough risk.

[SeijaKessen]

We have unprecedented levels of professionalism and reliability. What need is there for a hero in the car who can wrestle with a failing gear box while maintaining lap times without crashing? After all today's cars no longer have manual boxes, and the driver needs skills to reconfigure them from the steering wheel at 200mph rather than using brute force on a stick.

The reason that we no longer see heroic driving is because there is no competitive advantage in being heroic. It's not needed now, the cars are reliable and stay on track. A technically orientated diver is likely to more successful than a hero.

If you want to see more cars sliding off track then you need less aero and worse tyres. If you want to to see a heroic solo effort by a man in a machine then we need to half the number in the pit crew and ban telemetry & radios. You'd get 60's style racing with man battling against machine, cars crashing in every race and tyres disintegrating at high speed. Then drivers with heroic traits would gain competitive advantage over those with technical traits. The heros would return. But it don't need to have fatalities to achieve that goal, this time the drivers would be able to walk away and do it again.

...

For the avoidance of doubt, I do agree that the old style racing was more dramatic and relied on heroism not needed these days. You can't blame the drivers for providing the skills needed by today's formula.

What I am calling for are circuits to be less forgiving than they are now.

I don't think it's a particularly terrible thing to make the cars less forgiving than they are now.

Ever wonder why open-wheel drivers don't fare too well in NASCAR for the most part?

[Nando]

“The cars are easier to drive. You don't look at these guys and think 'they are real men'. They are talented, no question, but there is less in common. There is power steering now, [and] a lot of things that make the cars easier to drive. That's why these youngsters can get away with it." -Mark Webber

Easier to drive under the limit but i beg to differ they are on the ragged egde.

You did not need reflexes like a snake back then. Rear end steps out, no problem the slip angle is ridiculous anyways.
More work yes but driving a modern F1 car in the wet for example compared to the old cars is like night and day.

I think I'll listen to Mark Webber over you to be quite honest.

Schumacher said the cars are easier than ever to drive as well.

I suppose you know more than the two of them though?

Any chance we'll see you on the starting grid come Melbourne 2013?

Schumacher who has brinned the car twice in the last two races?
If it were so easy to drive he would never have crashed.

He´s really making an example of how easy the cars are to drive.
This was exactly the reason it took him 3 years to get into the groove again...
Because of course, they are so easy.

[SeijaKessen]

Who said anything about wanting drivers dying for my entertainment?

But don't you attribute gentleman spirit to risk taking? You would enjoy gentlemanship?

Do you like to make-up viewpoints and attribute them to people falsely because you don't quite understand where some of us are coming from?

Where did I make up a viewpoint? I asked you a question.

As for not understanding where you are coming from, I concur, I frankly can't understand how a person with Ayrton Senna on avatar can complain about drivers not taking enough risk.

In my opinion, Senna died trying to outrun an illegal car.

But he died doing what he loved...I can't fault him for it.

He made a choice to race, and as stated earlier, he was aware of the risks, as was everyone else at the time.

I've simply said, so long as everyone is aware of the risks, that is all that matters. They are capable of making informed decisions.

Don't like the possibility of dying?

Take up something else. No one is forcing you to drive race cars for a living.

Imola was never the same track once they took out the Tamburello Corner for safety. Therein lies my other contention...they could have if really wanted, pushed the wall back further and added massive tire barriers, and kept the track intact. It was supposed to be a fast track.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX3KUA_NwhE[/youtube]

I'd still rather drive that version than the joke they have now.

[timbo]

What I am calling for are circuits to be less forgiving than they are now.

Less forgiving? With corners like original Tamburello?

Ever wonder why open-wheel drivers don't fare too well in NASCAR for the most part?

Eh... And many NASCAR drivers fared well in open-wheelers?

[SeijaKessen]

Easier to drive under the limit but i beg to differ they are on the ragged egde.

You did not need reflexes like a snake back then. Rear end steps out, no problem the slip angle is ridiculous anyways.
More work yes but driving a modern F1 car in the wet for example compared to the old cars is like night and day.

I think I'll listen to Mark Webber over you to be quite honest.

Schumacher said the cars are easier than ever to drive as well.

I suppose you know more than the two of them though?

Any chance we'll see you on the starting grid come Melbourne 2013?

Schumacher who has brinned the car twice in the last two races?
If it were so easy to drive he would never have crashed.

He´s really making an example of how easy the cars are to drive.
This was exactly the reason it took him 3 years to get into the groove again...
Because of course, they are so easy.

He's driving a midfield car fielded by a team that doesn't know what they are doing.

Not sure why you would expect more.

[timbo]

Imola was never the same track once they took out the Tamburello Corner for safety. Therein lies my other contention...they could have if really wanted, pushed the wall back further and added massive tire barriers, and kept the track intact.

Oh, but wouldn't it make it safer?
He also wouldn't die had the car have proper cockpit protection.
And neither the track nor car modifications wouldn't take an ounce of his talent.

Safety DOES NOT make drivers any worse.

As for why they had to make a chicane out of Tamburello is because there's stream running alongside the corner and proper run off is impossible. Tamburello is not faster than 130-R.