2012 Belgian Grand Prix - Spa

[fiohaa]

Point 1 reminds you to watch races from the pre-pirelli era and refuelling when drivers had to push every lap to the limit to the end. Aaaah those days....
time to get the old dvd's out.

and yes, i am going to keep reminding everyone that drivers aren't doing their best job because its so tyre limited now. Im going to keep chanting this mantra, at every race, at every thread, forever.

out of interest, what was your opinion on grooved tyres?

they were great. They made the cars difficult to drive, pointy, nervous, the cars seemed to dart about, even in the traction control era.
bring them back, is what i say.

i think 98/99/00 were great years.

i went to the german gp this year, sat at the last corner, and watching the cars in the wet, squirm about, watching the driver having to use ALL his skills to keep the thing on the track (unless you're alonso, where off track is fine) - well it was simply spectacular to watch.

less tyre grip, the better.

[Gerhard Berger]

Point 1 reminds you to watch races from the pre-pirelli era and refuelling when drivers had to push every lap to the limit to the end. Aaaah those days....
time to get the old dvd's out.

and yes, i am going to keep reminding everyone that drivers aren't doing their best job because its so tyre limited now. Im going to keep chanting this mantra, at every race, at every thread, forever.

out of interest, what was your opinion on grooved tyres?

they were great. They made the cars difficult to drive, pointy, nervous, the cars seemed to dart about, even in the traction control era.
bring them back, is what i say.

i think 98/99/00 were great years.

i went to the german gp this year, sat at the last corner, and watching the cars in the wet, squirm about, watching the driver having to use ALL his skills to keep the thing on the track (unless you're alonso, where off track is fine) - well it was simply spectacular to watch.

less tyre grip, the better.

interesting! to be honest, i thought you wouldn't have liked the grooved tyres because it makes the drivers "tyre limited" as you say. The cars could go faster, but the tyres didn't provide the grip to do it. Villeneuve was one of the most vocal about about how the racing became less pure and how it stopped drivers pushing the limits.

[waynes]

F1 with grooved tyres was a joke

[zyphro]

F1 with grooved tyres was a joke

In-before-they-were-intentionally-brought-in-to-suit-Schumacher .

[alvinkhorfire]

(which is so much more appealing than just watching the lead car disappear into the horizon because the dirty air slowing everyone else behind down - Valencia i'm looking at you!!). Pure racing ... albeit with DRS!

Is there any way to design tyres, so that the chasers will not suffer way too much degradation in the dirty air behind the leader? Recently, it is so often the case that once a dominant car is in the lead, other racers will not have the chance to fight back. If you get too close, you will suffer degradation in the dirty air. If you are way too behind, it is more difficult to catch up.

[beelsebob]

(which is so much more appealing than just watching the lead car disappear into the horizon because the dirty air slowing everyone else behind down - Valencia i'm looking at you!!). Pure racing ... albeit with DRS!

Is there any way to design tyres, so that the chasers will not suffer way too much degradation in the dirty air behind the leader? Recently, it is so often the case that once a dominant car is in the lead, other racers will not have the chance to fight back. If you get too close, you will suffer degradation in the dirty air. If you are way too behind, it is more difficult to catch up.

Not really, that's why they designed DRS instead – so that even though you're suffering the disadvantage of front tyre wash out, you get the advantage of less drag on the straights.

[wesley123]

F1 with grooved tyres was a joke

Yeah and this artificial racing can be taken seriously

[MikeFromCanada]

they were great. They made the cars difficult to drive, pointy, nervous, the cars seemed to dart about, even in the traction control era.
bring them back, is what i say.

i think 98/99/00 were great years.

i went to the german gp this year, sat at the last corner, and watching the cars in the wet, squirm about, watching the driver having to use ALL his skills to keep the thing on the track (unless you're alonso, where off track is fine) - well it was simply spectacular to watch.

less tyre grip, the better.

It's interesting you would say that. Wouldn't a larger ratio of mechanical grip to aero grip provide for better racing overall? The FIA certainly "tried" to reduce the downforce levels on these cars with the 09 specifications with the intention of providing a better racing spectacle, but failed miserably with convaluted and open-ended wordings for rules/regulations.

[wesley123]

It is always funny to read that. Yes it 'should increase on track action'. in 2009 Downforce still was cut by a huge amount, had we seen any more on track action? No. As a matter of fact I can remember more on track action happening in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004 and 2003.

The FIA seems to think that the more overtaking there is, the more on track action there will be. Well they are wrong, and not even a little. On track action is simply this, in a few words; Drivers challenging each other for position. They arent anymore since any smart driver would just keep close in the 1 sec window and cruise past with DRS when he is in the allocated zone. That isnt on track action and neither is just cruising to make sure these idiotic Pirelli's last longer.

FIA came with all these gimmicks to increase 'on track action', well they couldnt me more off.

[zyphro]

Indeed for overtakes, there needs to be quality>quantity.

I want to see battles for overtakes that last quite a few laps, not a single push-to-pass system (which is what most overtakes are).

[MikeFromCanada]

Essentially what the DRS has become is a cover-up that makes awful tracks become "acceptable". Rather than actually correcting the underlying issues, the layout of the tracks, a band-aid solution was found.

If the DRS zone is placed alond the Kemmel straight once again, I will seriously deem the FIA incompetent.

[beelsebob]

It is always funny to read that. Yes it 'should increase on track action'. in 2009 Downforce still was cut by a huge amount, had we seen any more on track action? No. As a matter of fact I can remember more on track action happening in 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004 and 2003.

Quite frankly, if you think that, you're mad. 2010 was universally aclaimed as one of the most action packed years we've ever had, 2012 is shaping up to be pretty damn good too!

[raymondu999]

2010 was dry of overtaking when we had dry and dry. Great championship battle, yes - but the on track was somewhat rubbish, except when the race and/or quali was dry. We had action on track such as crashes and drama, but overtaking, not really

[turbof1]

they were great. They made the cars difficult to drive, pointy, nervous, the cars seemed to dart about, even in the traction control era.
bring them back, is what i say.

i think 98/99/00 were great years.

i went to the german gp this year, sat at the last corner, and watching the cars in the wet, squirm about, watching the driver having to use ALL his skills to keep the thing on the track (unless you're alonso, where off track is fine) - well it was simply spectacular to watch.

less tyre grip, the better.

It's interesting you would say that. Wouldn't a larger ratio of mechanical grip to aero grip provide for better racing overall? The FIA certainly "tried" to reduce the downforce levels on these cars with the 09 specifications with the intention of providing a better racing spectacle, but failed miserably with convaluted and open-ended wordings for rules/regulations.

Decreasing downforce does not work at all, simply b/c the cars are run in a technically competitive sport: teams will always find ways to claw back downforce, and with all the regulations they are working with micro aero: very refined and detailed bodywork which does give a whole leap of DF, but is also VERY sensitive to any air turbulence. We have seen cars loose 1-1.5 seconds in pure, potentional performance due to running in dirty air behind an other car.
They need to turn it around: reintroduce both grooved tyres and ground effect. Ground effect is both a very insensitive and low-drag solution. generally ground effect would give the downforce needed to be able to follow other cars closely in the corners. The grooved tyres are there to make sure cornering speeds don't get too high.

[beelsebob]

they were great. They made the cars difficult to drive, pointy, nervous, the cars seemed to dart about, even in the traction control era.
bring them back, is what i say.

i think 98/99/00 were great years.

i went to the german gp this year, sat at the last corner, and watching the cars in the wet, squirm about, watching the driver having to use ALL his skills to keep the thing on the track (unless you're alonso, where off track is fine) - well it was simply spectacular to watch.

less tyre grip, the better.

It's interesting you would say that. Wouldn't a larger ratio of mechanical grip to aero grip provide for better racing overall? The FIA certainly "tried" to reduce the downforce levels on these cars with the 09 specifications with the intention of providing a better racing spectacle, but failed miserably with convaluted and open-ended wordings for rules/regulations.

Decreasing downforce does not work at all, simply b/c the cars are run in a technically competitive sport: teams will always find ways to claw back downforce, and with all the regulations they are working with micro aero: very refined and detailed bodywork which does give a whole leap of DF, but is also VERY sensitive to any air turbulence. We have seen cars loose 1-1.5 seconds in pure, potentional performance due to running in dirty air behind an other car.

Flawed thinking – the teams would still be concentrating on that level of detail even if they were allowed the bigger wings. They're doing it because the technology to produce complex CF parts has moved on and allowed it, not because they're restricted on how much wing area they can use.

That said, I agree with the conclusion that ground effect is the way to go... I disagree with grooves, but only because they're fugly.