need help.

zenvision · Post 12 Sep 2006, 19:22

hi,

i'm new here in the forum although i read the articles for months. i am intrested in formula one technology even more. having read "Chariot Makers" i know that engines are bolted from one side to the monocoque and to the transmission. now i saw this picture of an engine and that little bottle really got me confused because there it should be bolted to the chassis. and i dont know whats that "box" on top of the engine doing or the pyramid that usually sit there do.

could you clear up my ideas please?

mark.

zac510 · Post 12 Sep 2006, 21:11

The red thing is the oil tank.
The black bit on the top is a bespoke cover intended to cover up the intake section so people don't spill their drinks in it and so forth

zenvision · Post 12 Sep 2006, 23:12

thanks zac, i appreciate

i still dont understand then where the fuel tank is put and where the engine block is bolted to the chassis because it cant be now that they bolt it to the oil tank! about the cover, hmm interesting, as i thought the intake would be low so that the fuel tank pump could be placed as low as possible. still if its a cover for the intake why do now they make it flat after years of having it in pyramid form?

thanks for my curiousity !

DaveKillens · Post 12 Sep 2006, 23:48

Oil control in a racing engine is very important. There's the primary job of an oil pump feeding oil to bearings, and sometimes cooling the undersides of the piston. But any moving part that strikes oil is impeded, and the causes power losses. So the idea is to scavenge any stray oil out of the crankase and anywhere else as quickly as possible. I have seen a five stage gear type oil pump, where just one stage was used to pump oil to the bearings, and the other four for scavenging. But oil that is scavenged can be frothy and needs to be separated from the air before it can be returned to the oil pump. So the oil tank is that high and in that shape because most of it is used to allow the air to separate from the oil.
oil is drawn from the bottom of the tank, goes through a cooler radiator, then through the oil pump and into the engine bearings and such. The scavenged oil is returned to the top of the tank, where is travels down, separating the air. The top of the oil tank is vented to the inside of the airbox. Any excess oil just goes into the intake, and that's why we see a puff of white smoke coming from the engine exhaust many times when they pull away for the installation lap.

zenvision · Post 13 Sep 2006, 00:10

thanks to you too dave although a little bit off topic but its always nice learning something new? without not going off subject since i'd love to know what those are and satisfy my curiousity, could you tell me also where did you learn all this stuff, are you engineers or work in the F1/motorsport business?

zac510 · Post 13 Sep 2006, 00:21

zenvision wrote:thanks zac, i appreciate i still dont understand then where the fuel tank is put and where the engine block is bolted to the chassis because it cant be now that they bolt it to the oil tank! about the cover, hmm interesting, as i thought the intake would be low so that the fuel tank pump could be placed as low as possible. still if its a cover for the intake why do now they make it flat after years of having it in pyramid form?

thanks for my curiousity !

Sorry I didn't clarify that very well. The intake cover is there only because it is a display engine. Real engines have carbon airboxes underneath the bodywork that extend up to the intake above the driver's head.

In this photo of the Toyota V10 you can see one mouting points on the top of the cam cover (it has two tiny little holes to the left of it). There is another one at the top of the cover hidden behind the hoses. There are more along the bottom of the engine too. Studs from the monocoque extend out and through these holes. On the TF105 there are only 8 mounting studs.

In this photo you can see the engine mounted on the dynamometer with two mounts being used at the base. It would surely be mounted at the other end too.

[img::]http://mk23.image.pbase.com/u16/nogarob ... .Dyno4.jpg[/img]

The fuel cell sits between the monocoque and the engine and is convoluted to fit as much into as little space as possible, in typical F1 style.

The pump on the lower left of the engine is the mechanical fuel pump that usually resides in the fuel cell. Imagine the fuel cell sitting around the oil tank, a little bit down the side and under the driver's butt

zenvision · Post 13 Sep 2006, 00:38

thanks for clearing that up zac again, kudos to you

so, i understood well that air intake part, so to clarify about the engine-chassis linkup, see if i described it well. the chassis has long studs from it that link up to the engine (how are they bolted though?) and the fuel tank sits in between the chassis and engine (not more than the oil pump) and the rest of it under the driver, see i'm a fast learner

are you an engineer or something because its an area that intrest me and i'd like to further my studies on topics like these.

DaveKillens · Post 13 Sep 2006, 01:47

Read a lot.

http://www.scarbsf1.com/

Ciro Pabón · Post 13 Sep 2006, 01:57

Welcome, zenvision. I hope you have a good time here. However, of course you understand that here, there, everywhere, it is the same, it is not?

If you are interested in the background of the bunch, you can check here. By the way, if you post something there, maybe the recent members will see the thread and add themselves. There is another thread on what are people doing in motorsports here.

Please, go on with your intentions of further studies. I always say that the only thing more expensive and that takes more time than to study is not to study. Perhaps this other thread can inspire you. At least you can read something about the Tresham Institute of Further and Higher Education".

manchild · Post 13 Sep 2006, 03:25

viewtopic.php?t=1983

[img::]http://www.scarbsf1.com/rear_bulkhead.jpg[/img]

zac510 · Post 13 Sep 2006, 11:01

zenvision wrote: the chassis has long studs from it that link up to the engine (how are they bolted though?)

Good ol' nuts!

I'm not an engineer but I've read a lot of books and followed the cars for years.

zenvision · Post 13 Sep 2006, 11:48

thanks for those pictures manchild, those cleared my mind perfectly. i'm still getting my head around the forum as i am new to forums basically because before i was repelled by them since i went in an F1 one and it was full of trolls, bashing drivers et al. finally i found somewhere for my case

well regarding studies its a bit difficult to be honest from a remote country like Malta and the only courses offered that could link to motorsports are mech or electrical engineer, no aerospace or something like that. its a pity because i always get very satisfactory results with the minimum of effort but i dont think there is hope for me in the motorsport world

do you recommend books also as the next step after 'Chariot Makers' by matchett?

zac510 · Post 13 Sep 2006, 15:11

good pictures, thanks manchild.

DaveKillens · Post 13 Sep 2006, 19:24

zenvision, I may sometimes appear to wander off topic, but it's for a reason. Knowing just what a component is nice, but it's important to understand why a certain component has a certain shape, it's location, and function in relation to everything else.
For instance, after viewing manchild's excellent pictures, you can see the air intake on the rollover structure, and how the pyramid structure joins it and the engine intake. The cover you were enquiring after is just there to keep things from falling in by mistake. If someone dropped a screw or nut down there by accident, it may necessitate sending the egnine back to the factory for disassembly and rebuild.
BTW, welcome to this forum, it's my pleasure to meet you.

manchild · Post 13 Sep 2006, 19:44

I've found only one pic (Renault) the other is the one Scarbs posted