Red Bull RB8 Renault

[marcush.]

I looked up the mclaren electronics website and their alternator can take serious temperature levels -as the alternator is a separate entity to the regulator unit which is connected via cabling of up to 2000mm length away from the mechanical parts of the alternator -presumably in the sidepods. mand the electronics are rated at 80°C ...not múch really.

[Jackles-UK]

I never for a minute stated that the Renault engine was a bad engine just that it was down a little of power in the top end compared to the Merc and, given past results around power circuits as well as this weekends result, it certaintly seems to be the case. This is maybe due in part to a lower horsepower output but also due to the Renault KERS only delivering about half what the Merc equivalent churns out.

In fact IMO the Renault engine has contributed a lot to the RBR dominance of the last few years. Due to the fact that it is quite a bit smaller than the Merc/Ferrari lumps RBR has been able to narrow the rear coke-bottle and obtain those sweeping, narrow-waisted rear ends that Newey has become so distinguished at creating and rivals have become so desperate to emulate. That isn't even taking into account the hot-blown engine maps they strived so hard to perfect in 2010/11.

Just swings and roundabouts really!

[rssh]

The Renault engine is about 4-5% down on horse power compared to merc engine . Also as many people know that the engine power comtributes only 30% of the total car performance so a 4-5 % deficit is more like 2-3 % deficit on the car chassis (depending on how well the package is.) . Now knowing that the RBR has more downforce with lesser drag penalty in corner carving tracks its low downforce package needs artificial downfore (EBD) .

In 2012 the top speed of Vettel was better than last year (327 vs 335) because of close competition the car behind can easily pass in DRS this compromised the corner exit and accleration which was complimented by the EBD (thus Vettel was all over Alonso last year going into the 2nd chicane).

Last year RBR weren't confident of a pole position in Monza and the low downforce package was may be average but in the Ascari chicane they had the downforce they needed .

Comparing to E20 which had massive top speed in Bahrain I was expecting more from them (I think their car is great in tyre management in medium and high speed corner wereas RBR is great in slow speed corners).

[raymondu999]

Looking at the last few pages of the thread, is it just me, or have Red Bull been somewhat lagging (compared to their rivals in McLaren and Ferrari) in bringing up updates lately? Or perhaps the upgrades brought to each race are the less visible type?

[aral]

The Renault engine is about 4-5% down on horse power compared to merc engine . Also as many people know that the engine power comtributes only 30% of the total car performance so a 4-5 % deficit is more like 2-3 % deficit on the car chassis (depending on how well the package is.) . Now knowing that the RBR has more downforce with lesser drag penalty in corner carving tracks its low downforce package needs artificial downfore (EBD) .

In 2012 the top speed of Vettel was better than last year (327 vs 335) because of close competition the car behind can easily pass in DRS this compromised the corner exit and accleration which was complimented by the EBD (thus Vettel was all over Alonso last year going into the 2nd chicane).

Last year RBR weren't confident of a pole position in Monza and the low downforce package was may be average but in the Ascari chicane they had the downforce they needed .

Comparing to E20 which had massive top speed in Bahrain I was expecting more from them (I think their car is great in tyre management in medium and high speed corner wereas RBR is great in slow speed corners).

Difference in top speed can be attributed to many things, such as air pressure, air temperature, track temperature, revised aero, tyres etc etc. It means nothing.

[myurr]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/102454

Doesn't bode particularly well for Red Bull in Singapore! Sounds like they were lucky to make it through Monaco, and had failures in Valencia and Monza. Wonder why Vettel's car appears to be affected more than Webber's. Could driving style be playing a part (e.g. throttle application, usage of the kerbs, etc.)?

[aral]

Wonder why Vettel's car appears to be affected more than Webber's. Could driving style be playing a part (e.g. throttle application, usage of the kerbs, etc.)?

Maybe because it is being driven faster?

[RB7ate9]

Wonder why Vettel's car appears to be affected more than Webber's. Could driving style be playing a part (e.g. throttle application, usage of the kerbs, etc.)?

Maybe because it is being driven faster?

Webber did ok in Monaco and Silverstone

[Ral]

I had been thinking about that as well as at Lotus the same thing is occurring where the failures were all on the car Raikkonen was not driving.

Renault have suggested the alternator was failing at low revs, so that does make driving style a possible contributing factor, within the confines of the track's corners? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Raikkonen shifts up more aggressively than Grosjean, whatever that means when using paddle-shifts, but perhaps that means on the whole he spends less time in lower rev ranges? With Webber and Raikkonen being a bit more old-school, perhaps it's a difference in their training compared to their younger team mates. Remember Lotus had the same issue rearing its head on d'Ambrosio's car.

[LHamilton]

Well, I had to contribute to this one.

I came across an youtube clip which shows a comparison between Lewis Hamilton and Sebastian Vettel on a lap of the Abu Dhabi curcuit.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjcpIRWU6wI[/youtube]

In some corners, where Lewis is changing to first gear, Vettel is changing to second. Where Lewis is changing to second, Vettel is changing to third. By doing that, of course, using lower revs and could be a factor on which the alternator fails.

[scarbs]

Ironically Red Bull have been judged to be pushing revs higher, i.e. runnign in a lower gear, in order to get more effect from the exhaust over the diffuser.

[Raptor22]

Yeah red bull tend to set up their cars to use the engine more as a awrodynamic pump then the other teams. Clearly the tricks the FIA have removed has advantaged the Mercedes engine and I wonder if that has anything to do with the Mercedes threat to quite F1 due to exclusion from the cherry side of the concorde agreement?

Either way red Bull need to find a way to recover driveability whilst maintaining the aerodynamic effects. It may require a new gearbox but thats only an option for the new season since its a homologated device. I can see the how their argument the rules ahve been altered to advantage one supplier cna have a lot of truth to it.

[raymondu999]

d'Ambrosio's was apparently having problems too though, and remember Grosjean in Valencia. Perhaps it is something in the driving lines these drivers take? Kimi and Webber seem unaffected.

In other news - is it not slightly worrying for Red Bull that their last big update came in Valencia, then a smaller update in Silverstone, while Ferrari and McLaren have really been working their development timeline?

Also, other than the loss of the EBD from last year, could Red Bull's lack of any real competitiveness in Monza be down to their D-spec sidepod ducting adding some choke drag to the system?

[RB7ate9]

In other news - is it not slightly worrying for Red Bull that their last big update came in Valencia, then a smaller update in Silverstone, while Ferrari and McLaren have really been working their development timeline?

I stated this notion somewhere before, but I think Red Bull knew that there was little in the way of countering the top speed of the competition going from after the twisty-sweepy circuits (Monaco to Silverstone) for Spa and Monza. What they didn't expect was the whole debacle with the engine mapping in Germany and into Hungary. Or did they?

What I'm guessing is that Red Bull knew that Spa and Monza were, at best, toss-ups in terms of positions and points and so bypassed them in terms of upgrades. They could be focused more on an improved downforce package for the back half that are more up Red Bull's alley (Singapore to Brazil). They're probably banking on high points in the last 7 races to bring them back from the brink. This may even involve having one of their drivers to "Maintain the gap"....

For all we know, this could have been the strategy all along and we'll see an E-spec that will wipe the floor with the competition. For this fan, I can only hope! [-o<

Also, other than the loss of the EBD from last year, could Red Bull's lack of any real competitiveness in Monza be down to their D-spec sidepod ducting adding some choke drag to the system?

I feel there was definitely a chance to at least try an Acer-Duct/Maclaren solution that would allow more free-flow from the sidepods to the rear than the "tunnel" that they have now. I had wished they had also tested out the A-spec rear package (more akin to Lotus and Mercedes); it seemed to have the potential for less drag. Of course, it probably would've meant less rear downforce, hurting them in the second sector.

[Ral]

In other news - is it not slightly worrying for Red Bull that their last big update came in Valencia, then a smaller update in Silverstone, while Ferrari and McLaren have really been working their development timeline?

Could it be that having some of their inventions being banned turned some of their development avenues into dead ends and they had to effectively find new development paths, or adjust what they had in the pipeline to work effectively with the rest of the car? I'm not trying to be smart, genuine question, as I'm not entirely sure how for example the throttle maps would have dictated developments. But then, that's probably why I don't work in F1