2012 Japanese GP - Suzuka

[raymondu999]

Dengners are definitely not flat out.

T1 is important because the way you're braking changes your speed carried up through 2. The braking itself wouldn't be the laptime gain, nor would speed through T1. It's about how little you can get away without brake. You can trail your braking just enough to load your fronts and get your nose tucked in, and exit like a rocketship. There definitely is laptime to be gained by correct technique on the brakes in T1.

[Nando]

I disagree massively.

I haven´t driven the real thing but i´ve logged a massive amounts of laps on a 1cm accurate laserscanned version.
every kink, every elevation is accurately reproduced.

T1 you enter flat on low fuel, the car is as planted as it is in 130R.
You just make as straight of a line as you can and downshift then find T2 apex and away you go.

Regarding Degner being flat, not sure why you even state such an obvious fact.
I know i never claimed it to be flat.

Sure there´s laptime to be gained everywhere on track but my opinion is that T1-2 is one of the least important corners on the whole track.

Let´s just agree to disagree, we won´t get anywhere.

[raymondu999]

I haven´t driven the real thing

I have once, absolutely fantastic experience. Mind you, my ride was nothing close to an F1 car.

Regarding Degner being flat, not sure why you even state such an obvious fact.
I know i never claimed it to be flat.

I'm not saying you did. It was just my confused answer to the following quote:

You have to back off slightly, impossible to take it flat.

My reaction was basically, as you put it...

not sure why you even state such an obvious fact.

Let´s just agree to disagree, we won´t get anywhere.

I'm still sold on that the brakes aren't just crucial to slow you down - but to load the fronts to help turn in. But yep - let's agree to disagree.

[GrizzleBoy]

I'm still sold on that the brakes aren't just crucial to slow you down - but to load the fronts to help turn in. But yep - let's agree to disagree.

Isn't brake bias changing evidence of this?

Helping to spread the/get optimum balance of the car under braking, based on brake load balancing across the front/rear?

[raymondu999]

I'm not talking about brake balance as such - but rather, using the braking to shift the weight forwards and get the nose to dive - the extra vertical loading on the front helps the nose tuck in to Turn 2, which by extension means you can apex and exit Turn 2 quicker anyways.

The way you trail brake into Turn 2 at Suzuka, in my view - is crucial to carry the momentum through into the Esses.

[GrizzleBoy]

I'm not talking about brake balance as such - but rather, using the braking to shift the weight forwards and get the nose to dive - the extra vertical loading on the front helps the nose tuck in to Turn 2, which by extension means you can apex and exit Turn 2 quicker anyways.

The way you trail brake into Turn 2 at Suzuka, in my view - is crucial to carry the momentum through into the Esses.

Indeed, I was just saying that the existence of adjustable brake bias and the way it affects the the weight shift of the car under braking could be a testament to your theory that brakes do more than simply make the car slower.

For instance, front biased brakes will cause he rear to push into the front and cause produce more load for the front tyres as the car tilts.

Whereas rear biased brakes will cause the rears to be "dragged" as he fronts attempt to keep going (relatively), therefore creating less of an overall balance/weight shift in the car under braking.

[flynfrog]

I'm not talking about brake balance as such - but rather, using the braking to shift the weight forwards and get the nose to dive - the extra vertical loading on the front helps the nose tuck in to Turn 2, which by extension means you can apex and exit Turn 2 quicker anyways.

The way you trail brake into Turn 2 at Suzuka, in my view - is crucial to carry the momentum through into the Esses.

Indeed, I was just saying that the existence of adjustable brake bias and the way it affects the the weight shift of the car under braking could be a testament to your theory that brakes do more than simply make the car slower.

For instance, front biased brakes will cause he rear to push into the front and cause produce more load for the front tyres as the car tilts.

Whereas rear biased brakes will cause the rears to be "dragged" as he fronts attempt to keep going (relatively), therefore creating less of an overall balance/weight shift in the car under braking.

this is incorrect a front bias car will work the fronts just as much as a perfectly biased car. the weight transfer will be the same.

[Hail22]

Qualifying prediction top 5:

1. Button
2. Perez
3. MSC
4. Alonso
5. Hamilton

Race:

1. Alonso
2. MSC
3. Button
4. Perez
5. Raikkonen

[GrizzleBoy]

I'm not talking about brake balance as such - but rather, using the braking to shift the weight forwards and get the nose to dive - the extra vertical loading on the front helps the nose tuck in to Turn 2, which by extension means you can apex and exit Turn 2 quicker anyways.

The way you trail brake into Turn 2 at Suzuka, in my view - is crucial to carry the momentum through into the Esses.

Indeed, I was just saying that the existence of adjustable brake bias and the way it affects the the weight shift of the car under braking could be a testament to your theory that brakes do more than simply make the car slower.

For instance, front biased brakes will cause he rear to push into the front and cause produce more load for the front tyres as the car tilts.

Whereas rear biased brakes will cause the rears to be "dragged" as he fronts attempt to keep going (relatively), therefore creating less of an overall balance/weight shift in the car under braking.

this is incorrect a front bias car will work the fronts just as much as a perfectly biased car. the weight transfer will be the same.

Can you elaborate?

[foxmulder_ms]

Hmmm, let's guess

McLaren > Redbull = Lotus > Ferrari.

[Shrieker]

Hamilton will walk this. Just as he has in Hungary, Italy and Singapore (almost). Alonso has a good chance for a podium thanks to track characteristics playing to the F2012's strenghts. Button, Vettel or a surprise player might deny him one though.

[aero expert 807]

Vettel is the nearest challenger to Alonso.
Because of this the team will do everything they can [including team orders] to get him win.

[flynfrog]

Can you elaborate?

Until you reach the point of too much rear bias you will be using 100% of the front tires. You are simply trying to dial in just enough rear bias to fully utilize them without the rears locking first. The rear brakes have nothing to do with weight transfer until you get too much rear bias.

[raymondu999]

Vettel is the nearest challenger to Alonso.
Because of this the team will do everything they can [including team orders] to get him win.

I think if Jenson Button is saying he will help Lewis, then Webber will have to step up and help Vettel too - not only is Vettel closer a challenger to Alonso than Hamilton is, but the gap in points at Red Bull (Vettel is 33 ahead of Webber) is greater than that at McLaren (Hamilton is 23 ahead of Button).

I think - should Red Bull start doing team orders, and having Mark up there to take points off Fernando - then I think the title can still be a realistic prospect for Vettel, especially with the Ferrari's development curve lately slowing down somewhat. (though I'm sure this final statement about the Ferrari's development curve will come bite back at me).

The McLaren probably looks the better victory prospect here, but I think a car quicker in terms of laptime could very well hurt its tyres more here given the pace they're carrying through in lateral through the Esses.

Until you reach the point of too much rear bias you will be using 100% of the front tires. You are simply trying to dial in just enough rear bias to fully utilize them without the rears locking first. The rear brakes have nothing to do with weight transfer until you get too much rear bias.

How about assuming no locking? Say you had 100% threshold braking, sans locking. How would the weight transfer differ at the different levels of braking bias?

[RB7ate9]

Vettel is the nearest challenger to Alonso.
Because of this the team will do everything they can [including team orders] to get him win.

I concur. Red Bull likes winning. This season hasn't been the sweep it was in 2011 or even 2010. With the field as close as it is, the Red Bull will want to keep Vettel on the top step with Webber using his Aussie grit to hold off everyone else. They have both honor and financial future to consider if they don't make it a habit of winning with a nice dual-championship hat trick.

Realistically, I'm thinking Mclaren will win this one. Who, though, is the real question. As raymond pointed out, the lateral stresses will eat tires, perhaps favoring Button Vettel and Alonso as top three team favorites. If development pace works to Red Bull advantage, the worst result that would still help Vettel would be Button-Hamilton-Vettel-Webber-Alonso.

Predictions:

Quali:
1. Hamilton
2. Vettel
3. Button
4. Alonso
5. Webber
6. Perez
7. Raikkonen
8. Rosberg
9. Grosjean
10. Schumacher

Race Ideal (Reality):
1. Vettel (Hamilton)
2. Hamilton (Vettel)
3. Button
4. Alonso
5. Perez
6. Webber
7. Raikkonen
8. DiResta
9. Rosberg
10. Grosjean

Edited to differentiate expected real results versus desired results.