F1 will see a complete change in engine regulations in 2014, and we're having a closer look at what that means exactly
Isn't the going convention, that the name only contains the main sponsor, the team name and the engine supplier? So the Mercedes part of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes has only to do with the use of Mercedes HPE engines.Nando wrote:Ok so even if you own that small of a percentage, your name (i.e. Mercedes) will always show up in the full name for the Mclaren team? (i.e. Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes)
So it´s not a contract thing?
I respect your opinion but you haven't been the most accurate source on this issue so far. I'm pretty sure they are paying and will definitely pay from 2014. I will watch this issue and try to find sources to settle it some time in the future.hairy wrote:I guess this means free engines until 2015, so thats very interesting.
No idea but most likely correct. I remember the odd one, BMW Sauber Ferrarisuperdread wrote:Isn't the going convention, that the name only contains the main sponsor, the team name and the engine supplier? So the Mercedes part of Vodafone McLaren Mercedes has only to do with the use of Mercedes HPE engines.Nando wrote:Ok so even if you own that small of a percentage, your name (i.e. Mercedes) will always show up in the full name for the Mclaren team? (i.e. Vodafone Mclaren Mercedes)
So it´s not a contract thing?
I totally agree ^^^^Sombrero wrote:The future of F-1 : low tech, high cost...
Now I understand better why Toyota is back in WEC, VW in WRC and Honda in WTCC...
This is according to Mr. E. He often gets his way particularly in commercial matters, but I would not bet the farm on him being right about the opinion of some other players. I know for a fact that Todt's opinion in the engine issue is quite distorted in Ecclestone's story. The way he has pushed this through speaks a different language. I also see a genuine advantage for Ferrari to pursue the new engines which should motivate Montezemolo to stick to the plan.radosav wrote:new F1 engines to be scrapped
http://totalf1.com/full_story/view/4301 ... cclestone/
He can afford to keep the courts tied up with appeals til hell freezes over AND pigs fly.Hope he will be taken out of circulation by the german courts soon.
If this is correct Renault is going to test the new 2014 V6T engine on track in the next two monts. From development point of view, resources invested, updates to production sites and reorganization of engine departments (Renault said they have changed most of engine test benches to suit the new v6 design, Ferrari said they reorganized staff and working facilities in their engine department to work on the new engine formula, etc.) it is unlikely the new engines will be postponed again."Driving a modern Formula 1 car is very helpful and maybe I have another chance to do it with the new engine in the next two months. That would be another good experience.I am already thinking about the new technology coming in Formula 1 with the new engines. I am going to work very hard with Renault on that; it is our new target."Alain Prost could give Renault's 2014 engine an on-track test
Renault and Mercedes urge F1 to stick to V6 turbo plan
May 25, 2012
Mercedes and Renault have warned against delaying the introduction of Formula One's new engine regulations beyond 2014, amid suggestions that the extra expense could stretch the budgets of smaller teams too far.
Formula One is set to switch from the current 2.4-litre naturally aspirated V8s to 1.6-litre turbo charged V6s in two years' time. The original plan was to introduce four cylinder turbo engines in 2013, but it was altered and postponed a year following concerns about the sound and image of the sport.
However, recent reports in Italy and Germany said smaller teams have raised concerns about the cost of the new engines - not to mention the cost of overhauling the designs of their cars - with suggestions the introduction of the V6 turbos could be delayed.
When asked about a possible delay and if customer teams would be offered engines at a price matching the V8s, Mercedes team principal Ross Brawn said: "I think it would be a mistake to delay the engines again. If you recall, we've already delayed them one year and we've had to… in fact we've changed them from a four cylinder to a six cylinder and then we delayed them a year.
"Every change actually costs a lot of money for the people investing in new engines. We're committed to a new engine programme, it's progressing, we've been able to justify the budgets to our board and we don't want to see a deferment or a delay in that new engine."
Renault Sport managing director Jean-Francois Caubet played down suggestions that the price of the engines would cause ructions.
"I think we will probably know in September the cost of the new engine. I don't think the cost of the new engine will be a drama."
And he made Renault Sport's stance on the introduction of the new engine in 2014 clear.
"We have already delayed the engine once, from four cylinder to go to six cylinders. I think it cost us around ten or 15 million, probably the same for Mercedes and probably the same for Ferrari. So we have blown nearly 50 million for nothing. If you delay one year, we think it will be never (happen) because the delay will be '15 and then '16. For Renault, it is a strategic choice."
Brawn added that if Formula One wants to attract new engine manufacturers - one of the reasons the change was proposed in the first place - it must stick to the 2014 switch.
"I think it sends a very bad message back in terms of Formula One to keep changing its direction on things that are so fundamental, which need so much investment to make work," he said. "I think the new engine is very exciting. I think today engines are not really a topic in Formula One; they used to be, and I think it used to add to the sport, that the engine was quite a large factor in the performance envelope or the performance cycle of the car. I think the engines are much more relevant. Our company is getting some real benefits from the technology of this engine. We are using expertise and resource within the company to develop and design this new engine. It's a much more relevant engine. We're going to be running around on two thirds of the fuel that we're running on now with, we think, comparable power outputs.
"We've got to change the engine at some stage. We will become irrelevant with the engine if we don't look to change. The world's changing and I think the new engine is a far more relevant engine for Formula One for the future. If we're going to get new manufacturers into Formula One, which I think is a good thing, then why will they come in to build an antique V8 engine? They won't. They will only come in with this new engine, so we want to attract manufacturers back into Formula One and this new engine is very important [in doing that]."
Source
F1: Renault already putting ''70pc'' into 2014 engine
F1 engine supplier Renault is now devoting 70 per cent of its efforts into the sport's new 6-cylinder turbo formula for 2014.
This year's championship and the next are the last in which the cars will be powered by the current generation of normally-aspirated V8s.
"We are now working 70 per cent on the new engine," Red Bull supplier Renault Sport F1's Jean-Francois Caubet told Germany's Auto Bild.
"Next year it will be 100pc," he added.
Renault also supplies the Lotus, Williams and Caterham teams.
The report said Renault's estimated cost of development for the 1.6 litre V6 is EUR 50 million.
A significant part of that is KERS.
"That (KERS) is an integral part of the new engine. In 2014 we will supply Red Bull not only with the engine, but the complete powertrain," Jean-François Caubet explained.
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Ferrari's 2014 engine begins dyno testing
August 28, 2012
Ferrari
Ferrari's head of engine and electronics Luca Marmorini has revealed that the team is already testing a prototype V6 engine on the dyno in Maranello.
With the futures of Cosworth and PURE unclear, Mercedes' Norbert Haug recently said he expects only three engine brands to be on the 2014 grid; Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault. Now Marmorini has confirmed that the Ferrari project is already at an advanced stage, with the 1.6-litre V6 already being tested at Maranello.
"It is a very challenging period for power train people," Marmorini told the official Ferrari website. "We are working on the 2012 power train, and the rest of the season is very important. No-one's mentioned that we have to work on the 2013 engine; with the new installation that's a big work. At the same time we have the V6 - the first prototype V6 - running on the dyno, and this is a very interesting project.
"The 2014 regulation is extremely challenging, a completely new Formula One power train regulation mostly focused on energy recovery, and it is indeed an area where Ferrari wants to invest and is interested in. Our V6 is running at the moment and we are learning a lot of things. It's a turbo engine, a different turbo because it implies energy recovery also from the turbo compressor. We are really focused on this and we are looking forward to interpreting the rules in the right way."
"Our V6 is running at the moment and we are learning a lot of things. It is a turbo engine, a different turbo because it uses energy recovery. We are really focused and looking forward to interpreting the rules in the right way."
Source
While Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes continue efforts on the new turbo-charged engines, the fate of independent supplier PURE remains uncertain - after the company suspended operations earlier this month because of funding difficulties.
It is also unclear yet as to whether or not Cosworth will elect to invest in expensive development of a 2014 engine either – which could leave F1 with just three manufacturers for the start of that season.
original source:AutoSport Source
Q: We’re looking ahead to a big regulation change in 2014. What has been set in stone and what is up for debate?
MW: The 2014 engine regulations are particularly challenging for Formula One. I think they were and are an appropriate set of regulations. Formula One has to do a better job at promoting the development of technology and engine efficiency. Looking forward, we have to develop technology that is relevant for society and the major automotive manufacturers. Clearly at the moment we like relatively large capacity, high-revving, normally-aspirated engines. As racers we enjoy those. But there’s quite a big difference between those and what the manufacturers have in their cars today and what they are concentrating on in the future. Formula One has introduced KERS technology which has been a challenging but useful project. Looking ahead to 2014 though, there will be a lot of emphasis on fuel efficiency, downsized turbo-charged engines, and an increased emphasis on kinetic energy recovery and exhaust energy recovery. All of those things - if you look into the R&D programmes of major manufacturers - are what they are working on. It’s important that Formula One is interesting and relevant to manufacturers and a major sport like Formula One must demonstrate that it’s addressing the issues and challenges that face the whole of society. We know that Ferrari, Renault and Daimler are working very hard on this. It’s a big challenge. I think, inevitably, whenever you make a change, there will be some people who are uncomfortable. But we’ve reached a point now where there is sufficient commitment from those manufacturers that the F1 community have to get behind them and support them. We must make sure that we reward those who are making that investment in the sport.
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Mercedes predicts three engine suppliers in 2014
August 2, 2012
Mercedes is expecting just three engine manufacturers to continue in Formula One when the new V6 turbo regulations are introduced in 2014.
The teams are set to switch from the current 2.4-litre V8s to 1.6-litre V6s in 2014 with a greater emphasis on energy recovery systems such as KERS. Ferrari, Renault and Mercedes are all developing engines under the new regulations, while Cosworth has remained quieter about its plans and newcomers PURE recently revealed to Autosport that it has suspended operations.
Mercedes motorsport boss Norbert Haug believes the sport will enter the new era with just three engine brands on the grid.
"I assume and think and am pretty sure that we will have three and no more than three," he said. "But with three I think we can get the job done."
When asked if Mercedes is therefore looking to increase the number of teams it supplies, Haug added: "We need to evaluate the situation. We are in discussions with the three manufacturers together - still on cost issues and bringing the costs down. And this will also be the object, who will supply whom."
Bernie Ecclestone said he was "sure" three manufacturers would be enough to supply all 12 teams in 2014, although the original intention of the regulations had been to attract more big-name manufacturers.
However, Racecar Engineering reported last month that the 2014 regulations for the LMP1 class in endurance racing could change to allow F1 engines to compete at the famous Le Mans 24 Hours alongside 5-litre turbos. Audi and Toyota are currently competing in LMP1 with Porsche set to return in 2014, but it may be more likely that F1 engine manufacturers use LMP1 as a test bed for their F1 engines.
Source
Mercedes to test new turbo engine
Thu, 08 Dec 15:58:00 2011
Mercedes-Benz is set to run its 2014 turbocharged Formula 1 engine on a dyno test bed imminently according to reports, as technical chiefs played down concerns the new power units will not sound great.
Mercedes Formula One driver Rosberg drives during second practice session at the Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal - 0
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With development of the new V6 engines pushing on, Mercedes-Benz sources have confirmed that the company's first version of its 2014 engine will be ready 'soon' - although a final date has not yet been sorted.
And with much interest about how these new engines will sound, amid concerns from Bernie Ecclestone and grand prix promoters that they will not be as loud as the current V8s, the man heading the design has no such worries.
Mercedes-Benz engineering director Andy Cowell said: "The engines are high revving. You don't get the maximum fuel flow rate until you are above 10,500rpm, and the maximum revs are at 15,000rpm. Plus, with six pipes going into one turbocharger, a single tail pipe from six cylinders revving at 15,000rpm I think will sound very nice."
The move to V6 turbos for 2014 has also prompted fears about a fresh spending war between manufacturers, but Mercedes-Benz is also confident now that strict technical regulations have kept costs under control.
This means that the idea of an engine-specific Resource Restriction Agreement has been dropped because it is no longer necessary.
Thomas Fuhr, managing director of Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines, said: "The biggest achievement with this, irrespective of a physical RRA, was to get sensible technical regulations.
"The FIA, together with the manufacturers, did a great job. A lot of things are pre-defined, so you don't spend money developing it - you know there is a single turbo, so it makes things much, much easier. That is the biggest benefit out of these regulations.
"If you control it technically, it is much easier saying you can control it here and there. You see on the chassis front how complicated it has got. The FIA has it in hand with the engines, and there is no way you can go around this topic."
For more on Formula 1 engines in 2011, and insight into the development and programme of Mercedes-Benz in F1, click here.
Original source: AutoSport
Source
Renault to decide in September about customer teams' supply for 2014 season
Thursday, June 14th 2012, 09:47 GMT
Renault engine Renault will decide in September just how many customer teams it will be able to supply when Formula 1 switches to the new V6 turbo engines from 2014.
Amid some concern in the paddock about dramatic cost increases for teams because engine makers have to pass on the development costs of the new power units, sources have revealed that efforts are being made to ensure that the situation does not destabilise the sport.
Renault Sport F1's managing director Jean-Francois Caubet believes that a lifting of the current limitation of manufacturer to supply a maximum of three teams would be a big help - especially amid uncertainty about the number of outfits independent suppliers PURE and Cosworth may reach deals with.
That would leave the way open for Renault to supply up to six teams, which could mean that the costs of its deal may not be as high as those engine makers only supplying two or three teams like Mercedes-Benz and Ferrari.
Speaking to AUTOSPORT about the situation, with Renault due to dyno test its V6 for the first time this week, Caubet said: "Today we have four customers. I think we will keep four next year as there is no way to change.
"The problem we have is that we need to choose what will be our strategy for 2014. We have two kinds of options: to focus on two teams or to choose a bigger figure. In any case, the decision will be taken in September this year because we need to decide what we do.
"What we first want to understand is what will be the position of the World Council about how many teams. That will be discussed next week.
"We are quite clear with Jean [Todt] and we talked with Bernie that we need to have an open market because under old rules it was right [to limit the number of teams] when there was Ferrari, us, Cosworth, Mercedes, Honda and BMW and Toyota. We told Jean that now, though, we need to have an open market, with no limitations for 2014."
Although engine and power train deals that will cost around 20 million Euros for 2014 will be a big hike for some teams, manufacturers are adamant that a glide path reduction in costs means that over a five-year period costs will be the same on average as they are now: around 15 million Euros for a top-line package.
Mercedes-Benz motorsport boss Norbert Haug said: "If you introduce a new engine it can cost more in the beginning, but it is a five-year period we are talking about. I think we can achieve comparable spending over a five-year period and that has to be the target."
Source
Some pretty good points in my view. It shows that the teams and particularly the small teams are not against the new engines but they insist - quite rightly - on cost control. I reckon that the engine manufacturers development resources or budget needs to be capped and a sensible maximum sales price for the engines must be controlled by the FiA.“Looking back over the last two or three years, one of the things that’s really been surprising is just how much the goalposts have moved in terms of things like cost control or resource restrictions and things like that. Also uncertainty over engines for 2014, which I think is potentially one of the biggest threats to the sustainability of large numbers of the teams on the grid, and that really shouldn’t be the case. Introducing any new step is good for a sport – you need to be innovative, you need to be relevant, that’s absolutely for sure. But it has to be done with sustainability at the heart of it.
We’re all running businesses, we have responsibilities to our employees and there’s an awful lot of investment, time, effort and devotion that goes in from a lot of people. We owe it to those people to ensure that this sport is sustainable and has a long and bright future. I think most fans aren’t too worried whether it’s a V4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 – who cares? It has to be fast, it has to make a noise, preferably environmentally friendly, although I think there’s an awful lot that the teams can demonstrate in other ways with carbon footprint and the like. But the key thing is we have to maintain and create great competition, that’s what people want to watch. My own view is that we owe it to the sport to promote a regulatory framework that has the fans at the centre of it. That is ultimately what pays the bills.”
