Red Bull RB8 Renault

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hollus
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Dragonfly wrote:Can someone explain how the RBR DDRS system is beneficial during a race and especially when the car is leading with little if any (only back marker overtaking) situations to open the upper flap.
...
Maybe it is not beneficial during the race (if you are leading) at all. We seem to assume that this allows them to use more downforce as they can shed it in quali, much like the 2010 style F-ducts. That was done when the driver could always control its activation, now that is no longer the case.

There is another way to do set up with a system like this: you set the car up exactly as you would have without DDRS. This way you do not compromise the race, but still get an extra in qualifying and if you happen to use it in the race.
In other words, maybe there is no compromise because there are no downsides to start with? Implementing that system behind the DRS flap and exiting in a small slit like that highlighted in the beam wing comes at the cost of maybe 50 grams of weight and making a couple of pieces 2 mm thicker than they would otherwise be, in areas where they do not obstruct air. And with DRS closed, everything functions as usual.
Virtually no downsides?
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raymondu999
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Donuts wrote:
Dragonfly wrote:
Donuts wrote: Sounds nice, why has'nt everyone else got one? :D
Maybe because the number of people able to think out of the frame is constantly decreasing in F1. Possibly a side effect from so many restrictions.
Maybe, you could certainly question why Mercedes only chose to stall the front wing, why not the back wing, beam wing and the diffuser at the same time? A couple of more "pipes" and voilà, top speed of 400 km/h! :D
What makes you think all that piping won't create internal drag? And also, given the little amount of air you're getting in there - what makes you think you can stall all of those things at once, anyway?
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Donuts
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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raymondu999 wrote:
Donuts wrote:Maybe, you could certainly question why Mercedes only chose to stall the front wing, why not the back wing, beam wing and the diffuser at the same time? A couple of more "pipes" and voilà, top speed of 400 km/h! :D
What makes you think all that piping won't create internal drag? And also, given the little amount of air you're getting in there - what makes you think you can stall all of those things at once, anyway?
For gods sake, I'm not being serious! I'm hinting at the same thing you are writing out in plain words. Have a look at the conversation before... with Gilgen... easy solution?
Last edited by Steven on 08 Oct 2012, 21:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Dragonfly
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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hollus wrote: Maybe it is not beneficial during the race (if you are leading) at all.
....................
Virtually no downsides?
Yes, that's logical. But the general opinion is that for the last couple of races they have gained additional downforce at the back and many people attribute it to the blowing through the beam wing with air diverted through the vertical plates. But because DRS usage is limited and random during a race, I saw some contradiction.
Your and turbof1 suggest a different angle of view - the system is helping them to not sacrifice existing downforce in the setup which leads to a relative gain. Which I think is the better and logical explanation.

Note: My impression about the popular explanation is combined from reading on other forums also, but I prefer to discuss it here in a more calm environment and people with more technical interests.
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WhiteBlue
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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bhallg2k wrote:I guess I should have asked another way. What evidence is there that Red Bull is blowing the beam wing? I don't see any thus far.
Image

The slot in the end plate under the beam wing are very obvious in the picture. They are probably not sufficient to stall the beam wing centre section, but it should do the trick for the wing ends.
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aral
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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WhiteBlue wrote:
The slot in the end plate under the beam wing are very obvious in the picture. They are probably not sufficient to stall the beam wing centre section, but it should do the trick for the wing ends.
Have you a photo of the outer end of the beam wing, where it meets the end plate. I seem to recall seeing a possible opening at the outer end. May be wrong though.

bhall
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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WhiteBlue wrote:[...]
The slot in the end plate under the beam wing are very obvious in the picture. They are probably not sufficient to stall the beam wing centre section, but it should do the trick for the wing ends.
That's not a slot. It's the edge of a seal between the beam wing and the end plate. Besides, it makes no sense to blow the top of any wing.

If there is a slot on the beam wing, it's here:
Image

Ferrari has a similar aperture, though, and no one has ever so much as hinted that they have a Daffy Duct.

We need better pictures.

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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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bhallg2 wrote: That's not a slot. It's the edge of a seal between the beam wing and the end plate. Besides, it makes no sense to blow the top of any wing.
Err, I think you missed it, he's not on about the seal at the top, there's a very obvious slot underneath, where it DOES make sense to blow....
Last edited by PhillipM on 09 Oct 2012, 10:56, edited 1 time in total.

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Hail22
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Red Bull DDRS:

Image

An informative piece by James Allen:

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/10/r ... in-suzuka/

Also look at the photo of the wing...why is a mechanic leaning on the wing? They must have something extra a long with the DDRS? will be interesting to see more photos this week from Korea!
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Donuts
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Questions:

Did the RB8 go thru R130 with DRS activated in qualifying? What was the speed compared to the straight?
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kebab
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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As far as I can recall the RB8 didn't open the DRS at the entry of 130R but opened after the first bend. I don't know the speed though.

The on board from Vettel car during the race showed that he did lift a bit at the beginning of 130R.

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raymondu999
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Donuts wrote:Questions:

Did the RB8 go thru R130 with DRS activated in qualifying? What was the speed compared to the straight?
Yes, DRS open through and through.
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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RB8 Japan updates(Italian)

http://i49.tinypic.com/2qaqpw7.png
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Dragonfly wrote:
Donuts wrote: Sounds nice, why has'nt everyone else got one? :D
Maybe because the number of people able to think out of the frame is constantly decreasing in F1. Possibly a side effect from so many restrictions.
Have to say, I seem to remember scarbs saying on the flying lap that this kind of DDRS is the way teams might go once it was deemed legal.

Seems to me like Mercedes were too clever by half - compromising themselves with lots of tubing and ultimately unbalancing the car, when this solution could have saved them a lot of bother.

Dragonfly
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Re: Red Bull RB8 Renault

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Mercedes IMO are a bit different case - after 2009 Brawn seem to be seeking for another silver bullet like the DD instead of more rational approach. I suppose their solution for DDRS needs a lot of CFD research and to be tricky for tuning.
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