2014-2020 Formula One 1.6l V6 turbo engine formula

[WhiteBlue]

The question is very appropriate
...
One can only hope that we will soon see some engine tests on the tracks to confirm that.

Thank you very much WB. That makes a lot of sense. Clear and well written as usual from you haha.


Edit rather than make a new post: Why are these turbos less powerfull than the 80's ones? They are 0.1L bigger. Is it because of the boost?

Because they will have less fuel to burn. The fuel flow will be limited to generate similar performance as we have today. In the eighties they burned much more fuel but they still achieved much lower cornering performance. The performance on straights was higher though.

[Absolutelee]

makes sense. Thanks again

[WhiteBlue]

I overstated my case here and stand corrected. The V6 is way betten than the L4, but I'd like to see free revs. After you watched the 20K RPM V10s live it's been downhill all the way.

That is debatable. Your preferences. Others have different preferences.

And that's a bad thing. We are not the ones driving, we are watching in search of thrill, and mule kick engines are more thrilling.

With that kind of nostalgic backwards philosophy we could as well watch the 16 cylinder monsters of the 1930s. You have got to move on and address today's issues to keep F1 interesting to technical fans and the real world.

I guess you should review what you've written here. Tyres increasing downforce and downforce improving engine performance... nah.

If you quote correctly and think about it my comment will become clear to you. Performance is always dependant of the way that tyres and aero convert the available engine power into performance. Engine drivability also plays a role as I have pointed out. And performance simply is not limit less. There are limits that sensible people do not consider exceeding.

You see, the business of F1 is the one of intertaining people and convincing them to buy things they don't need. None of this is rational.

I neither see F1 limited to just the entertainment function nor do I have such a narrow view of the business case. F1 is also sport, excitement, passion, drama and a show of engineering prowess. It can promote a lot of positive things that are useful to society and the fans. Sporting and work ethics, canalizing the thrill of racing in a fashion that's acceptable, promoting road and track safety, promoting worthy technologies and useful products.

Those who pay the bill (by freely lending their eyes to be rented to advertisers, the sponsors) are really not concerned with the engineering side of anything, neither the rational behind things. They (we?) want thrill. Not playing chess against the computer or running matlab as a hobby.

It appears to me that you have a too narrow perspective that isn't shared by all. There are plenty of people who prefer to pay rather than have to endure advertising. Other stake holders like the engine manufacturers also sink big money into F1 and they want a reasonable return and then there are the teams who have twice agreed to the turbo engine plan. There are many people with more than a puerile thrill seeking perspective who have a stake in F1.

[rjsa]

It appears to me that you have a too narrow perspective that isn't shared by all. There are plenty of people who prefer to pay rather than have to endure advertising. Other stake holders like the engine manufacturers also sink big money into F1 and they want a reasonable return and then there are the teams who have twice agreed to the turbo engine plan. There are many people with more than a puerile thrill seeking perspective who have a stake in F1.

From where I look you seem to be the guy with a narrow perspective. You seem to be the only person actually willing for the day to come when these rules will be enforced.

The big players with some voice on it keep making shallow comments on the matter and some very heavy weights keep crying out loud for it to be forgotten. Up to now there is no telling how much money really was poured into the format. For companies as the ones involved machinning a one off block and putting the engine to run is really no big deal. Things only start to get complicated when you want to extract the last 30% of performance and reliability from the little monsters, let alone the gadgetry around them. And I guess this day is still far ahead in the future.

And then again, if still believe engine makers see this as a development environment instead of pure and simple advertising you are still to face huge disappointment when the truth sinks in.

[autogyro]

I beleive there are going to be seismic changes in vehicle motive power for road use very soon.
I will not give my estimate for the exact date when I believe this change will start to have a major effect but it not far off.

F1 has many diverse areas of vested interest and their voices will become ever louder as the time for change approaches.

The 1.6l v6 turbo formula is a compromise designed hopefuly to secure F1's future after the change.
Any further dillution of the V6 turbo concept will damage F1 and risk the interests of all those involved.
This is not a pie in the sky 'greeny' opinion it is a statement of absolute fact.

[WhiteBlue]

I reckon we will see in the fullness of time who is right.

[garrett]

Speed was not so high back then...

This is not true:

During the 2nd Qualifying session at Monza, Berger's B186 was speed trapped fastest of all cars at 351.22km/h (218.23mph) while Fabi was second having been clocked at 349.85km/h (217.38mph).

The reasons for fighting the V6 turbos are largely emotional rather than rational. It is a combination of fear, myths and a bit of nostalgia. In reality the new V6 turbos will have very exciting sound and performance qualities when you look at the data that are available from the design engineering side. One can only hope that we will soon see some engine tests on the tracks to confirm that.

That´s exactly the way it is. Very well put. And it´s a political battle over the rule of the sport with the turbo engines taken as hostages.

Second, the power wasn't nowhere as controllable as it will be with modern turbos.

Gerhard Berger on the most powerful turbo car, the Benetton B186-BMW (4 inline ):

The car was like a bomb at circuits like Spa, Austria and Monza. And the power was unbelievable - even if the turbo delay was terrible. You'd open the throttle at the entry to the corner only to get the power at the exit. And if you missed it by five or 10 metres, there was nothing you could do - you just spun it. The lag was about one or two seconds.
At Zeltweg, down the long straight to the Bosch Kurve, the car was throwing out 1400 bhp and just kept on pushing - you felt like you were sitting on a rocket."

Gerhard Berger (speaking in 2007) on the B186.

You seem to be the only person actually willing for the day to come when these rules will be enforced.

These rules ARE enforced already. There are only some persons who didn´t accept this. You sound like the "journalists" Ecclestone bought for spreading his remarks about the 2014 engines.

[Tommy Cookers]

Honda presented a paper showing 995 max bhp on normal max power 23% rich mixture in 1986 (4 bar 195 litre fuel rules) and 675 max bhp (620 bhp economy) in 1987 (2.5 bar 150 litre fuel rules)
(this was specially dense fuel designed to give the most energy/litre, not directly comparable with 2014 fuel limits by weight)

will the new rules bring in more (than the apparent 3) engine manufacturers ?
or will those 3 become 2 ? etc etc

[WhiteBlue]

...will the new rules bring in more (than the apparent 3) engine manufacturers ?
or will those 3 become 2 ? etc etc

Nobody can seriously predict that, because it will depend of the sporting and technical rules that will ultimately apply to the 2014 cars. I think we can safely assume that the rule set currently published will not survive. It has not been updated since 2011.
But we can say with some certainty that keeping the frozen V8s will not attract new manufacturers to F1. The likelihood is much higher when you can take on the existing guys with a design that is new for all and on conditions that are the same for all.

[garrett]

Hondas Yoshiharu Yamamoto was cited yesterday that a return of Honda into F1 could be possible in the next years, but only with the new engine regulations in power:

“On a personal level I love racing, but there is a lot involved when you are in F1 – it is the very top of auto racing and that requires a large commitment,” Yamamoto told Autocar.

“But it is true that we do look up at those races and hope that one day we can take part again.

“I do not personally think we can just go straight back immediately, but there is potential for the rules to change and attract us.

As I understood, it will be WTCC first, and then they will evaluate if WEC or F1 - if F1 still is with V8, it would be WEC imo.

[FW17]

I have not been reading the rules much, but is the V6 configuration a must? or is it that I4 will also be allowed?

If I4 config is allowable, are there a chance of engine prep companies such as mecachrome, judd, mugen etc. preparing WRC or WTCC engines for F1 or the power differential too much?

"BMW Motorsport will continue to further develop the 1.6-litre turbo engine in conjunction with Prodrive." Can this engine be modded for F1 customer teams?

[Raptor22]

Hondas Yoshiharu Yamamoto was cited yesterday that a return of Honda into F1 could be possible in the next years, but only with the new engine regulations in power:

“On a personal level I love racing, but there is a lot involved when you are in F1 – it is the very top of auto racing and that requires a large commitment,” Yamamoto told Autocar.

“But it is true that we do look up at those races and hope that one day we can take part again.

“I do not personally think we can just go straight back immediately, but there is potential for the rules to change and attract us.

As I understood, it will be WTCC first, and then they will evaluate if WEC or F1 - if F1 still is with V8, it would be WEC imo.

Yip thats what the motorsport insiders are saying. Audi and toyota are getting such value out of the WEC that Honda is seriously considering it. It all hinges on the engine regs though. Without the new engine, Only Ferrari and MErcedes will be left to fight it out and Ferrari is not a certainty...

[mx_tifoso]

SpeedTV mentioned that Honda Motor Co. had clarified the statement in that it was a personal point of view, and not one that reflected the corporations'. So no go imo.

[Raptor22]

IF you read the statement it was a personal point of view. BUt rarely would a Japanese member of staff put a persoanl opinion on record without there being some truth to it at this time.

[garrett]

Absolutely agreed. Looks like it was a "trial balloon", and maybe even a warning concerning the current V6 discussion.

Yesterday, Jean-Francois Caubet feared that Honda could save themselves the imponderabilities of the first two years of turbo development when entering F1 in 2016.