Bloodhound SSC

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lkelm15
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Re: Bloodhound SSC

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From my understanding Bonneville was not chosen for the record attempt because of the hardness of the ground and the havoc it could potentially wreak on the bottom of the vehicle by bouncing shock waves back up to it.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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today I learn that Bloodhound SSC is to go supersonic next year

did Thrust SSC go supersonic ?
(there is a view that the 7t car at full speed heated the air immediately ahead such that its speed through that air never exceeded Mach 1.00 for that (heated) air)

at this speed aircraft are heated about 40deg C by their motion
there is about 80 mph change in the the speed of sound with 40deg C change in the air temperature
(eg a rocket sled ih a hydrogen-filled tunnel might do Mach n, but its speed does not correspond to Mach n in contiguous air)

maybe Bloodhound SSC is to settle that dispute ?
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 03 Oct 2012, 21:12, edited 2 times in total.

AlpineF1
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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Hmm im pretty sure it did, and yes i met Richard Noble had a go on the simulator and joined the club :D
I'm a bit of a fan.
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Joined: 01 Nov 2009, 20:51

Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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As far as I know it did break mach 1, but didn't go much faster after that...

You mean this pic? Gotta love this one, just one of many milestones in engineering!

Image

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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Presumably the idea is based on the fact that the speed of sound in air gets higher as temperature increases. Also presumably, the idea has been put about by people who don't want SSC to be seen as the first supersonic car. Taking the idea further, perhaps we should also claim that Chuck Yeager didn't break the sound barrier because the air in front of the X-1 would have been heated too? Phooey, say I.

Of course, if the Labour Govt in '46 hadn't got its way, it's quite possible that the Miles M.52 would have been the first plane to break the sound barrier - a scale model did so quite dramatically and in controlled flight too. The full size test schedule was to have seen an attempt at Mach 1 about a year before the X-1 did so. Good old budget cuts...some things never change it seems.

There is a definite double sonic boom in the footage of the supersonic Thrust SSC runs indicating that the local speed of sound was exceeded. The World Motor Sport Council homologated the result and stated that both runs in the timed hour were in excess of the speed of sound.

http://youtu.be/TYEtQGLzvkI?t=28s
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strad
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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Short answer,,Yes/
Long answer...31 minutes 469 Mb
click photo
Image
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Tommy Cookers
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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Just_a_fan wrote:Presumably the idea is based on the fact that the speed of sound in air gets higher as temperature increases. Also presumably, the idea has been put about by people who don't want SSC to be seen as the first supersonic car. Taking the idea further, perhaps we should also claim that Chuck Yeager didn't break the sound barrier because the air in front of the X-1 would have been heated too? Phooey, say I.

Of course, if the Labour Govt in '46 hadn't got its way, it's quite possible that the Miles M.52 would have been the first plane to break the sound barrier - a scale model did so quite dramatically and in controlled flight too. The full size test schedule was to have seen an attempt at Mach 1 about a year before the X-1 did so. Good old budget cuts...some things never change it seems.

There is a definite double sonic boom in the footage of the supersonic Thrust SSC runs indicating that the local speed of sound was exceeded. The World Motor Sport Council homologated the result and stated that both runs in the timed hour were in excess of the speed of sound.

http://youtu.be/TYEtQGLzvkI?t=28s
Gen Yeager did about M1.07, this was a convincing margin
as I understand it, the point of going supersonic is to be sure that critical (relative) airflows are supersonic (and still behave ok)
(we now know these flows (around well designed flying surfaces) would be fully supersonic even at maybe M0.98 aircraft speed)

so the argument AFAIK is did (the untried) SSC show fully developed satisfactory flows on that run ?
(I guess it did if the ambient air fully dominated the flows, rather than air (locally) heated by the car's movement)
I seem to remember that careful wording had always been used by the Thrust team (for this reason ?)
(the clever attitude control system was locked out, attitude was fixed with rigid struts)

BTW the manned M52 schedule ? it was to use a 5 mile runway made by combining 3 airfields
the 60% model (Vickers) would have been successful much earlier if the radio control side had been competent
sonic booms were known earlier (from V2s arriving), a P47 crashing at it's flight test centre made booms, was it 'supersonic' ?

autogyro
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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German Me 163 Komet rocket fighter almost certainly went supersonic in the early 1940's.
However the Luftwaffe had more pressing problems than record breaking.
All post war supersonic flight owed much to German aviation developments during WW2.
The B1 flown by Chuck Yeager would not have been successful breaking the sound barrier if it had not used the fully flying tailplane developed by Miles aviation in the UK, or if it had not used the huge amount of German technology captured at the end of the war.
Piston engined aircraft would only reach Mach 1 in dives beyond full control and the usual result was reversed control surface response and a crash.
If I remember it was Geoff Duke flying a British Hawker Hunter jet fighter who was the first exceed Mach 1 in a practical aircraft. The Hunter was 'transonic'. It used the British designed and developed turbo jet engine, the details of which were strangely given free of charge to both America and Russia. I never could understand that stupid oversight.

Tommy Cookers
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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autogyro wrote: All post war supersonic flight owed much to German aviation developments during WW2.
The B1 flown by Chuck Yeager would not have been successful breaking the sound barrier if it had not used the fully flying tailplane developed by Miles aviation in the UK, or if it had not used the huge amount of German technology captured at the end of the war.
Piston engined aircraft would only reach Mach 1 in dives beyond full control and the usual result was reversed control surface response and a crash.
The Hunter was 'transonic'. It used the British designed and developed turbo jet engine, the details of which were strangely given free of charge to both America and Russia.
IMO the UK had a bit more knowlege than others, hence the (RAE Farnborough) 'slab' tailplane as above
(the 8th USAAF lost many P47s and P38s in dives, RAE fixed the P47 for them, the P51/Merlin came about from this)

non-supersonic aircraft have normal (ie undercambered/asymmetrical) wing sections for efficiency
(giving sudden CoP movement beyond some 'critical' Mach no, ie a huge and sudden change in (pitch) trim)
this trim change (usually nose-down) cannot be contained by pilot use of the elevators or trimmer (but he will try)
the apparent 'death dive' tends to naturally recover near the ground as warmer air reduces the Mach no below Mcrit
the pilot is applying a nose-up trim/control etc without result, as the plane drops below critical Mach no there is sudden nose-up 'g'
the pilot then choses a nose-down input, hence there is a (mistaken) impression that there is/has been control reversal

eg all airliners have this characteristic, and such dives and recoveries can still occur today
(autopilots trip out when in difficulty and ring an overspeed warning to prevent the above, but it still happens)
recoveries can cause tip stalling, where the CoP moves forward, producing 'pitch-up' and sudden nose-down commands by the pilot

'the control reversal concept was used (in the UK) to define roll control
(aileron action twists the wing, partly opposing the aileron's effect, beyond a certain 'control reversal' speed the wing twist dominates the aileron and the resulting roll is opposite to that commanded)
eg stiffer Spitfire wings had a nominated reversal speed of 820 mph, so at speeds used they had enough roll control

the USA paid (about £6 mill ?) for a general right over turbojets, then paid fees for the 20000+ UK designed engines they built
(this saved Pratt & Whitney (J42 & J48) and Curtiss-Wright (J67), the UK had little use for its engines),France etc paid fees
the UK position would have been stronger (regarding priority) if Whittle had avoided the handicap of reverse-flow combustion
(which route was taken to save critical time by using parts made for his earlier design involving heat exchange ?)
(thereby no Whittle engine was useful for service, the UK position was transformed by Halford (DH), Hooker (RR) and MetroVick)

the USA funded the whole engine development that led to the Harrier (+50% for the airframe) via Mutual Weapons Development Fund
the US Marine Corps saved the Harrier (and it saved them from the US Navy, similarly the USMC liked UK hovercraft)
the Hunters exported to Europe were 100% funded by the USA
(they such poor servicability that they were bought back by Hawker almost unused and sold-on elsewhere, says Roy Braybrook)

BTW ..... didn't that Art Arfons (some time ago) do a good job !
Last edited by Tommy Cookers on 15 Oct 2012, 18:53, edited 1 time in total.

flyboy2160
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Joined: 25 Apr 2011, 17:05

Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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Tommy Cookers wrote:..."this trim change (usually nose-down) cannot be contained by pilot use of the elevators or trimmer (but he will try)
the apparent 'death dive' tends to naturally recover near the ground as warmer air reduces the Mach no below Mcrit
the pilot is applying a nose-up trim/control etc without result, as the plane drops below critical Mach no there is sudden nose-up 'g'
the pilot then choses a nose-down input, hence there is a (mistaken) impression that there is/has been control reversal

eg all airliners have this characteristic, and such dives and 'pitch-up' recoveries can still occur today
(autopilots trip out when in difficulty and ring an overspeed warning to prevent the above, but it still happens)...
.... didn't that Art Arfons (some time ago) do a good job !

i'm writing mostly to thank you such an informative post!

i vaguely recall (no time now to look it up-off to flying!) that the fixed horizontal-partial chord elevators didn't work supersonically because the elevator was in the post shock airflow of a local shock off the horizontal leading edge, but i'm not sure. is this so?

thanks agian, flyboy2160.

autogyro
autogyro
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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Nice post Tommy.
Friend of mine died in a privately owned Hunter 6 in Northern England.
Exceeded Mach limit in heavy cloud.
Mk 6 Hunters were rebuilt Mk 4's.

Laminar wings and sweep back cured most of the control problems at Mach 1 transition.
The P51 made good use of laminar flow but without the sweep back.
I dont know from personal experience but it was probably easier on controls closs to mach 1 than most other types at the time.

Art Arfons was a brave guy as are all those who fight the speed demon air, ground or sky.

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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flyboy2160 wrote: i vaguely recall (no time now to look it up-off to flying!) that the fixed horizontal-partial chord elevators didn't work supersonically because the elevator was in the post shock airflow of a local shock off the horizontal leading edge, but i'm not sure. is this so?
it seems (to me) that ......
tailplanes were and are aerodynamically (% thickness) thinner than wings, ie Mach crit is lower for the wing than the tailplane
(shock effects are driven by camber, so symmetry and thinness are beneficial)
at Mach crit for a fixed tailplane with elevators it will be ineffective for control or trim (elevator deflection effectively increases camber, hence shock stall effect), the slab tailplane has no such problem

Bell built the tailplane to be actuator-moveable for trim (pitch control by elevators), but they modified it to work as a slab (giving the effect of fully-powered pitch control)
maybe elevator moments were the real issue, later planes eg F86, Hunter etc had fully-powered elevators, not slab tailplanes
the F100 and (eventually?) the Swift had slabs
fully-powered elevators were ok for Mach 1.2, the slab wins above that ? (a moveable tailplane needs no elevators anyway ?)

Tommy Cookers
Tommy Cookers
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Joined: 17 Feb 2012, 16:55

Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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autogyro wrote:
Laminar wings and sweep back cured most of the control problems at Mach 1 transition.
The P51 made good use of laminar flow but without the sweep
there was a P51 schemed with forward-swept wings (fsw won't tip stall like usual sweep)
also an RR scheme to replace the 51 fuselage with a Griffon installed P39 style, and exhaust and coolant to jet-effect duct

some behind the 51 said level flight speed was due to the jet effect (manufacturing imperfections and service degraded the wing)
(subsequently eg P 63, A 26 the 'laminar flow' section was changed to be less sensitive to above degradation)

the 51 (proven) Mcrit was 0.805(better than P38/47) was a lot less than Spitfire's 0.85 (PR19 M 0.96 recorded/survived postwar)
(the Spitfire wing was a much thinner (% chord), quite similar special Republic section, having less Cd than the 51's above M 0.67 it must have had a similar % laminarity than the (so-called) 'laminar flow' 51 wing, or the 'lf' wing on the (later) Spiteful)

presumably the 'lf' gave/gives benefits (weight, tankage etc) from its greater thickness

olefud
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Joined: 13 Mar 2011, 00:10
Location: Boulder, Colorado USA

Re: Bloodhound/Thrust SSC

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Tommy Cookers wrote:today I learn that Bloodhound SSC is to go supersonic next year

did Thrust SSC go supersonic ?
(there is a view that the 7t car at full speed heated the air immediately ahead such that its speed through that air never exceeded Mach 1.00 for that (heated) air)

at this speed aircraft are heated about 40deg C by their motion
there is about 80 mph change in the the speed of sound with 40deg C change in the air temperature
(eg a rocket sled ih a hydrogen-filled tunnel might do Mach n, but its speed does not correspond to Mach n in contiguous air)

maybe Bloodhound SSC is to settle that dispute ?
Interesting thought. The air ahead of the car would apparently be heated by compression –I doubt that convection could catch up- while most of the heating action would be with the car proper due to skin friction. I think TIC we have to give Thrust SSC at least a transonic rating.

Just_a_fan
Just_a_fan
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Joined: 31 Jan 2010, 20:37

Re: Bloodhound SSC

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It went supersonic. Bang bang.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.