BMW exhausts

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gcdugas
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006, 21:48

BMW exhausts

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The exhaust is pointing up more than on any other car... won't this disturb the air goiing to the rear wing?

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Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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m3_lover
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Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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is that from Monza GP?
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

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gcdugas
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yes
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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Oh yea, a lot of hot air leaves those pipes with respectable velocity. When you factor in the airstream, it most probably accelerates all the air between the lower wing structure and bottom of the wing itself. I doubt if the hot airflow passes over the top of the wing. Each team have their own strategy, some aim the exhaust straight back, like Ferrari.
When BMW took over the Sauber assets, it also included a brand new, state of the art wind tunnel. Personally, I believe BMW have a very good aero package. Sometimes I look at the pictures of the BMW and remark to myself at the clean design. They definitely know what they are doing, and doing it well.
My assumption is the hot exhaust provides a high velocity airstream on the bottom of the rear wing, magnifying the low pressure zone, and downforce.
I wonder if in the future we will see shapes other than the round exhaust, and rectangular exhausts emerge.

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gcdugas
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Joined: 19 Sep 2006, 21:48

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DaveKillens wrote:Oh yea, a lot of hot air leaves those pipes with respectable velocity. When you factor in the airstream, it most probably accelerates all the air between the lower wing structure and bottom of the wing itself. I doubt if the hot airflow passes over the top of the wing. Each team have their own strategy, some aim the exhaust straight back, like Ferrari.
When BMW took over the Sauber assets, it also included a brand new, state of the art wind tunnel. Personally, I believe BMW have a very good aero package. Sometimes I look at the pictures of the BMW and remark to myself at the clean design. They definitely know what they are doing, and doing it well.
My assumption is the hot exhaust provides a high velocity airstream on the bottom of the rear wing, magnifying the low pressure zone, and downforce.
I wonder if in the future we will see shapes other than the round exhaust, and rectangular exhausts emerge.

It matters not the velocity of the air under the wing, or harkening back to another thread, the diffuser if it increases the pressure upwards from low. If that air/exhaust gas wasn't there to dirty up the flow, then the wing would be most effective. All efforts are made to minimize turbulence heading to the rear wing. That is what McLaren and BMW do with their viking horns and other teams do with airbox "wings". They "condition" the air flowing towards the rear wing. The wing works by having high pressure on top push down while simultaneously having a low pressure zone "suck" it down. Now anything that "fills" that low pressure zone would only be counter-productive by raising the pressure. Still the exhaust must be directed somewhere, and somewhere thats minimally counter-productive.

Sauber BMW does have the best tunnel in the business. It is full size and it permits two cars in tandem to be measured simultaneously. This is unique among all the tunnels used in F1. They can use this to design front wings that have less loss of effectiveness when following in the wake of another car. But one thing that any wind tunnel cannot do is to account for the exhaust gasses (unless they have started running the engines, which I have never heard of yet). And another thing that tunnels cannot measure is the effect that the thermal contribution of the radiators have downstream as they exit warmer air which is more voluminous but less dense. When you hear of teams doing straight line testing, these are among the factors that they are trying to isolate so later on they can have a "correction figure" to fit in the equation with the tunnel data. They set the car up identically as in the tunnel and then, after correcting for barometric pressure (air mass) and humidity (even more air mass) and temperature, they can isolate the exhaust and radiator influences. The first three, barometer, humidity, and temperature are all rudimentary factors with well known equations to correct their influences. How often do we read 1/4 mile times and then see in the fine print "corrected for sea level at X degrees F"?

Which brings us back to the exhaust gasses and how to deal with them. The F2002 was the first car to use the periscope design to get the flow as horizontal as possible. It also had some bodywork shrouds around the pipes that helped scavenge some of the radiator air. The F2004 had some discrete bodywork air exits near the centerling at the base of the airbox. Dealing with radiator hot air is a challenge as well. Renault in 2004 expanded upon the shark gills that the F2003GA used. But now everyone has got the chimneys working so well that gill slits are used only in extreme heat like Sepang. (The chimneys first appeared on the 1999 McLarens mid season, then disappeared mostly until the 2003 Renault.) The gill slits are frowned upon by the aero guys because they mess up the air to the rear wing some. How much more the exhaust? In this case I speculate the the BMW's hot gasses were cooking the rear suspension parts beyond what they could handle with a layer of foil, and that aero had to take a back seat to reliability. Perhaps BMW have gotten the air flowing from the front top of the sidepods flowing downward and hugging the bodywork better than others (which is HIGHLY to be desired) and thus the exhaust wasn't "skipping over" the wishbones as much as other cars.

Anyone with more experience and knowledge is most welcomed to chime in and aid me in my "hack" aerodynamic thoughts. (I dare not call it "analysis".)
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

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Principessa
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You can always post your comments on our development blog as well as Tomba already pointed this new development out http://www.f1technical.net/development/33

Carlos
Carlos
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I came to the same conclusion concerning the BMW exhaust exit chimneys
---it's a complementry opinion--- I have no knowledge of CDF programs---
do they perhaps include the varible of temperature of airstreams? I found--
what I assume is a simple, free CDF program that was mentioned on several University sites---some sort of variation or similarity to the title Simflow---Flowsim---I unfortunately did not bookmark it---perhaps someone might take up the search---if we found a freeware CDF program that we could all use as a standard---it would assist all interested in this subject. Any freeware CDF would serve the same purpose. DaveKillens---
I admired your post on the 4WD Regenerative Braking thread---we do have a wonderous community---yes---F! brothers.

Regards Carlos

Carlos
Carlos
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JCdugas ---if i may comment---I do not think that BMW or McLaren do "all" that is possible to condition air passing over the rear wing---I imagine that many more innovations will be introduced addressing this specific problem---also your mention of underbody diffusers seem to divert my attention from this specific consideration of high exhaust exit positioning--could you perhaps be so kind as to add a post? I have gained the impression that in the past there was a relationship betwween exiting exhaust flow and diffuser airstream--- You may be "onto" something very new and interesting---Thankyou.

Regards Carlos

Carlos
Carlos
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By the By as the River flows---My first comment ---2 above was in agreement with your own opinion DaveKillens. Although it does not relate to this thread directly---but the MG Midget I picked up has an exhaust exit
--It was in Indianna---I also got a "line" on a Bug Eye Sprite in the area---if anyone needs a project---I have diverged a little from this thread---consider this particular post as connected merely by the exhaust of "hot air" from the exit of "Carlos"

Wandering Regards Carlos

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gcdugas
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Carlos wrote:JCdugas ---if i may comment---I do not think that BMW or McLaren do "all" that is possible to condition air passing over the rear wing---I imagine that many more innovations will be introduced addressing this specific problem---also your mention of underbody diffusers seem to divert my attention from this specific consideration of high exhaust exit positioning--could you perhaps be so kind as to add a post? I have gained the impression that in the past there was a relationship betwween exiting exhaust flow and diffuser airstream--- You may be "onto" something very new and interesting---Thankyou.

Regards Carlos
It was here... Clicky

During the thread someone was under the severely mistaken impression that the exhaust went directly into the diffuser and added? downforce...
Innovation over refinement is the prefered path to performance. -- Get rid of the dopey regs in F1

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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gcdugas wrote:During the thread someone was under the severely mistaken impression that the exhaust went directly into the diffuser and added? downforce...
That was me ..... :wink:
We seem to have come to two completely different conclusions. But hey, that's what forums are for.
My personal belief is that the exhaust air, although considerable in quantity, does not fill up and occupy places like the diffuser or between the wing elements, but instead entrains the ambient air, and actually accelerate it to suppliment scavenging and also to increase the low pressure zone by increased velocity.
At 20,000 RPM a 2.4 liter engine pumps out 24 cubic meters of air each second. If we were to assume a diffuser or the space between the rear wing elements as one square meter, that at 200 KPH we would see 55.5 cu meters of air per second pass through. So it's a close call, what kind of influence the exhaust has.

Thank you for the nice comment Carlos, I appreciate it. But no crap, this place really does have a lot of very nice people I enjoy associating with. It adds to the quality of my life.
And by the way, once upon a time in my wild youth I terrorized the Rocky Mountains with my Austin Healy Sprite.

Navier
Navier
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Joined: 01 Oct 2006, 19:32

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It would be usefull if those that do not know the fundamentals of fluid dynamics did not post there views on these subjects with such conviction. Others with no knowledge could easily mistake this conviction for being truthfull. In the other topic about high exhausts Reca in general terms explains it fairly comprehensively and correctly. So again, for those without proper textbooks on fluid dynamics: low pressure in sub-sonic aerodynamics is not caused by absence of air! (The continuity equation and the Bernoulli equation will show you that low pressure is caused by high velocity of the air and therefore by an abundance of air, as long as you have the pressure difference to maintain its high velocity) Absence of air would in general cause low velocities and therefore high pressure.
On the subject of the BMW exhausts, who knows.... If they were actually hitting the wing (for a reasonable amount of time), the wing would not survive due to burning up. If they were severely disrupting the airflow over the rear wing, their design would be changed. So either the effect is minimal, or benificial (Or least detrimental. After all, the exhaust has to exit somewhere). My guess would be slightly benificial, as the high velocity jet of the exhaust will entrain the air around it, resulting in a slight increase in downforce. (With a diameter of 80mm, and at 800degC, the velocity at 18000 rpm would roughly be 140 m/s, or 500 km/h)

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Glad to meet you Navier, welcome to THE forum. Notwithstanding whether you disagree or support my opinion, it's nice to see you contribute.

manchild
manchild
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gcdugas wrote:The F2002 was the first car to use the periscope design to get the flow as horizontal as possible....
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Tom
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Joined: 13 Jan 2006, 00:24
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That might just be an Innes Ireland Lotus, probably the 25 from 1963.
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