Rob Wilson - driver coach?

[megz]

With regards to the above - and this may reflect somewhat on Kimi's driving style - is the way they approach corners and what they do with the steering wheel. A few years back you'd hear Brundle and other Journo's talking about big circle, little circle (or the other way around, I don't remember. I remember reading this a lot in F1 racing magazine.)

Kimi generally comes into a corner, makes a small steering movement to start the turn in and then a moment later makes a larger turn on the steering wheel to put the car at the apex. I think that is what the journo's were talking about and possibly what Jackie is talking about. Giving the car an idea of what is about to happen, make sure it's happy and then finish the job. Keeping the car stable and allowing the driver to make any adjustments before the apex if need be.

This is most apparent at lower speed corners 2, 3 but you can see the tiny pause at other points of the lap.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62dixRc8AcU[/youtube]

[raymondu999]

If you trail brake to the apex, it naturally will take that line, just in a smoother fashion that builds up all the way through (ie there aren't two separate movements doing it) I think nowadays every driver (just about) trail brakes to the apex in slow corners, and some of them do so in medium speed corners too. Even Button IMO does it now. His hold-wheel-steady single-sweep style is now only used in the fast corners, see here:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFZ9TKbr3pc[/youtube]
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4j0MshDkBQ[/youtube]

If you trail brake right up to the apex, as you're increasingly removing the brakes and increasing the steering, you will naturally have to constantly increase steering more and more as you near the apex.

[Sevach]

While Button clearly trail brakes (which i believe it's par for the course in current F1) he still is increasing/decreasing his steering inputs gradually on a smooth continuous curve, while the shortening the corner, soft v, that Wilson is "advertising" is about flicking, rotating the car at the apex and straight lining the exit.

I have to say that to me this shortening the corner business sounds an awful lot like late apexing on hairpins.
Current F1 is infested with hairpins and mid to low speed parabolical(as Ray anonymous friend accurately described) corners, which allow this technique to work.

You won't see many drivers doing the flick and shortening the corner on circle corners because that would just kill apex and exit speed.

[raymondu999]

Wilson is "advertising" is about flicking, rotating the car at the apex and straight lining the exit.

Is it? I doubt it to be honest. If you were to look at one of the later episodes, he talks about how it's important that you warn the car - by turning in rather early, and very smoothly ramping up the lock until you hit the apex, because he says the early transfer of weight will cause a "twist" in the car.

[timbo]

Wilson is "advertising" is about flicking, rotating the car at the apex and straight lining the exit.

Is it? I doubt it to be honest. If you were to look at one of the later episodes, he talks about how it's important that you warn the car - by turning in rather early, and very smoothly ramping up the lock until you hit the apex, because he says the early transfer of weight will cause a "twist" in the car.

IMO what he says is about slowly "setting up" a car and then at the apex giving it a twist.

But that Raikkonen's video is more dramatic than what they do now. It's probably Michelins that year. You could see Alonso whacking the wheel at the apexes between 2004-2006, and now he's way more tame.

[Sevach]

Wilson is "advertising" is about flicking, rotating the car at the apex and straight lining the exit.

Is it? I doubt it to be honest. If you were to look at one of the later episodes, he talks about how it's important that you warn the car - by turning in rather early, and very smoothly ramping up the lock until you hit the apex, because he says the early transfer of weight will cause a "twist" in the car.

Yes, he does teach a soft initial turn in, but the whole part about manipulating the car inside the corner and taking a straighter line can only mean an additional twist at a critical point.
He does say in the initial video of the thread that even this motion has to be extremely precise however.

Edit: I pretty much agree with Timbo.

[raymondu999]

IMO what he says is about slowly "setting up" a car and then at the apex giving it a twist.

No honestly. He says to not make any sudden movements, and slowly ramping up the turn-in from very early on. He says it's an early transfer of weight that means you can get away with less steering lock because there is already "twist" in the car - it almost sounds like a drift technique to slide the rear almost automatically around at speed for a flat exit.

Here's the episode where he talks about it. Watch from 21:33 where he talks of it. He calls it a "torque twist" - though to my understanding "torque twist" actually is talking about when one axle produces so much more torque than the other that it actually twists your chassis - but it obviously doesn't mean that in this context.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1duPuwnZJV8[/youtube]

He specifically says to have the wheel turning at a constant rate.

[timbo]

IMO what he says is about slowly "setting up" a car and then at the apex giving it a twist.

No honestly. He says to not make any sudden movements, and slowly ramping up the turn-in from very early on. He says it's an early transfer of weight that means you can get away with less steering lock because there is already "twist" in the car - it almost sounds like a drift technique to slide the rear almost automatically around at speed for a flat exit.

Here's the episode where he talks about it. Watch from 21:33 where he talks of it. He calls it a "torque twist" - though to my understanding "torque twist" actually is talking about when one axle produces so much more torque than the other that it actually twists your chassis - but it obviously doesn't mean that in this context.

I think in that bit he talks about different thing, actually.

[raymondu999]

What, then?

[timbo]

What, then?

Well, he has two basic mantras, first one is "warn the car" (this is what he talks about in that bit IMO), second is shorten the corner. Oh, yeah, and set wheels straight when you are accelerating.

What megz shown in that Raikkonen's vid was introdusing maximum rotation at apex to shorten the corner.

[raymondu999]

Well, he has two basic mantras, first one is "warn the car" (this is what he talks about in that bit IMO), second is shorten the corner. Oh, yeah, and set wheels straight when you are accelerating.

Absolutely agreed.

What megz shown in that Raikkonen's vid was introdusing maximum rotation at apex to shorten the corner.

Agreed as well.

The thing is - what he explains all seems logical on the outset. He can explain them well, except for the torque twist bit which seems to me a bit like black magic in the way it seems to induce the drift (which it sounds like he's saying - basically inducing a snap drift to rotate the car quicker), but we'll let that go for now.

The reason I'm still somewhat confused, and admittedly somewhat skeptical, is that he seems to contradict himself at times. "Warn the car and induce torque twist" talks of a very smoothly ramping up early turn-in, while shortening the corner is talking of keeping the whole corner short and sweet. These two points seem very much contradictory to me - which is why I'm staying clear of the ipse dixit route.

[timbo]

The reason I'm still somewhat confused, and admittedly somewhat skeptical, is that he seems to contradict himself at times. "Warn the car and induce torque twist" talks of a very smoothly ramping up early turn-in, while shortening the corner is talking of keeping the whole corner short and sweet. These two points seem very much contradictory to me - which is why I'm staying clear of the ipse dixit route.

I think those two points deal with different phases of the corner. "Warn the car" makes sence when you're talking about initial braking/turn-in and also high-g corners, by turning slightly you allow the car to prepare for weight transfer and introduce some slip-angle on the rear tyres (which need to work laterally in the corner too). When if your corner is sufficiently slow so that there's relatively low g's on the apex you can try to introduce maximum rotation.

[Ral]

The reason I'm still somewhat confused, and admittedly somewhat skeptical, is that he seems to contradict himself at times. "Warn the car and induce torque twist" talks of a very smoothly ramping up early turn-in, while shortening the corner is talking of keeping the whole corner short and sweet. These two points seem very much contradictory to me - which is why I'm staying clear of the ipse dixit route.

The two statements don't contradict each other. The Raikkonen clip is a (as pointed out) very aggressive form of what he's talking about, but for both points not just the one.

The "smooth, continual motion" just means "once you start turning in, don't turn out until after you've hit the apex". Which doesn't preclude, even if only for a millisecond, keeping the wheel at the angle you turned it to initially as part of "warning the car".

So, you "warn the car" by turning in a little bit, but you can't do it too early or you'll be forced to correct your trajectory by turning out of the corner and then you'd have to a) start from scratch again and b) deal with the instability caused by the weight shift of your mini-weave (that, or take the cornering speed penalty for having to brake harder to take the tighter line, I guess).

Jacky Stewart says the same things btw, and also applies the same continuous motion principle to throttle application on corner exit. Ie, make sure you don't apply the throttle before you know you won't have to come off it again until you hit your intended throttle application target- don't stab at it.


I on the other hand, am confused as to how trail-breaking is meant to make the car corner. Are you saying they're going in essentially too fast and inducing a four-wheel slide by turning in more and more all the while releasing the breaks just a little bit too much keeping the speed "too high" all the way through the corner? "Too high a speed" meaning a higher speed than would be possible without sliding.

[Sevach]

Those 2 techniques do seem contradictory, on one hand he is saying warn the car, do things progressively, slowly ramp up steering movement...
On the other hand he wants you to twist, change the direction of the car at the apex...

Bottom line, they both seem to agree that Alonso was driving a straighter line on the exit compared to Jenson constant round line.

The key to me is at 24:49 "it's a bit more steering in the middle..." meaning the driver puts more steering at the apex but then he can afford to do with less on the exit.

Beats me why they use "torque" twist, the word torque by itself makes it seem like Alonso was using the throttle to balance the car do the "twist", positioning the car the way he wanted it, but that's not what they talked about...

[raymondu999]

I think those two points deal with different phases of the corner. "Warn the car" makes sence when you're talking about initial braking/turn-in and also high-g corners, by turning slightly you allow the car to prepare for weight transfer and introduce some slip-angle on the rear tyres (which need to work laterally in the corner too). When if your corner is sufficiently slow so that there's relatively low g's on the apex you can try to introduce maximum rotation.

This would kind of make sense I guess. induce the "torque twist" in the longer, higher-G corners, while in the hairpins, shorten the corner. Not that he makes it clear that's what he means, mind you.

The "smooth, continual motion" just means "once you start turning in, don't turn out until after you've hit the apex". Which doesn't preclude, even if only for a millisecond, keeping the wheel at the angle you turned it to initially as part of "warning the car".

So how does this not contradict shortening the corner? Keeping the turn-in and turn-out smooth will be "warning" the car - but it will "lengthen" the corner. Shortening the corner in his context is to tighten the line you're taking.

I on the other hand, am confused as to how trail-breaking is meant to make the car corner. Are you saying they're going in essentially too fast and inducing a four-wheel slide by turning in more and more all the while releasing the breaks just a little bit too much keeping the speed "too high" all the way through the corner? "Too high a speed" meaning a higher speed than would be possible without sliding.

Where does he mention trail braking? He's never even used the term.

Those 2 techniques do seem contradictory, on one hand he is saying warn the car, do things progressively, slowly ramp up steering movement...
On the other hand he wants you to twist, change the direction of the car at the apex...

Precisely the source of my confusion.

Beats me why they use "torque" twist, the word torque by itself makes it seem like Alonso was using the throttle to balance the car do the "twist", positioning the car the way he wanted it, but that's not what they talked about...

Heh - get used to it. Rob Wilson uses a lot of funny terms. Did you know that in his terminology a flatspot is something that has nothing to do with the tyres?

PS - I'm still not convinced on his "diagonal the straight at the last moment" technique - especially because I've never ever seen any F1 driver drive that way.