Mercedes AMG F1 W03

[marcush.]

If that was the case-Bigois responsible for each and every downfall -why does the team not make ANY progress since his departure? It´s not like Bigois has taken with him all the equipment and left them with an empty Workstation and they have to start from scratch..
Zander has not much more on offer -for whatever reason he has completely distanced himself from formula 1 and is now pursuing a life mimiking what Gordon Murray has already chosen to pursue: look up his website:

http://www.jz-engineering.com

he ´s offering the usual things from his Swiss base ...does this make him the man to have as TD? Of course we don´t know what made him leave BGP .It could have been a fallout with Brawn and Bigois about how to prepare for 2010 and beyond - which would fit into the timeframe of his departure.

[NewtonMeter]

I know where everything started going down hill from since the BGP001

Things didn't go downhill since then. The BGP001 was a high-mid field car that happened to have one cool idea on it that no one else had thought of. That idea, and that idea alone won it the championship.

Are you referring to the outwash front wing?

[wesley123]

I know where everything started going down hill from since the BGP001

Things didn't go downhill since then. The BGP001 was a high-mid field car that happened to have one cool idea on it that no one else had thought of. That idea, and that idea alone won it the championship.

Indeed. It had a really powerful front wing and the DDD from the start. The first one was something no one thought of, the second one was a loophole everyone knew about but apart from Toyota, Williams and Brawn, no one used. As soon as the other teams got both of those Brawn were no where and quickly passed by Red Bull, McLaren and on a few occasions 1 or 2 other teams.

I dont know what it is with the team, but they always have an excuse for everything, no it is never that they made a crappy car, no it is either the tires, an idea they didnt expect to be used or another crappy excuse, no it is never their fault. Afaik they use the tires as an excuse for their crap performance since 2009.

[aral]

I know where everything started going down hill from since the BGP001

Things didn't go downhill since then. The BGP001 was a high-mid field car that happened to have one cool idea on it that no one else had thought of. That idea, and that idea alone won it the championship.

Indeed. It had a really powerful front wing and the DDD from the start. The first one was something no one thought of, the second one was a loophole everyone knew about but apart from Toyota, Williams and Brawn, no one used. As soon as the other teams got both of those Brawn were no where and quickly passed by Red Bull, McLaren and on a few occasions 1 or 2 other teams.

I dont know what it is with the team, but they always have an excuse for everything, no it is never that they made a crappy car, no it is either the tires, an idea they didnt expect to be used or another crappy excuse, no it is never their fault. Afaik they use the tires as an excuse for their crap performance since 2009.

Oh come on! Dont start all this DDD argument again! Others did think of it but were told by FIA that it would be illegal. They dropped their development, but Brawn (Honda) Toyota and Williams were allowed to continue. Purely political move. FIA wanted toyota nad Honda to stay in F1.
Anyway, its over and done with, so just move on.

[Steven]

Gentlemen, may I ask to stick to facts and tone down on the speculation please? This discussion is rehashing sentiments we have seen on page 1 of this thread, nobody is helped by this, not even in the broadest understanding. Thank you.

[dren]

The Amus article states that the W03 has gone through 3 rear end geometry changes already. They have worked extensively with aero and mechanical weight distribution over the season. The issue seems to be getting and keeping all 4 tires in the narrow temperature range. It sounds like the performance has been dialed back in areas in an attempt to keep the tires in the right range. This is what I suspected early on. The car is quick, the team just can't figure out how to keep the tires in the right range. The Amus article also states that Mclaren, Red Bull and Ferrari all run similar linked suspension systems, but not at all the tracks. This car is either very tricky to dial in, or there needs to be some different solutions on how to keep the tires in the temperature range.

[marcush.]

The Amus article states that the W03 has gone through 3 rear end geometry changes already. They have worked extensively with aero and mechanical weight distribution over the season. The issue seems to be getting and keeping all 4 tires in the narrow temperature range. It sounds like the performance has been dialed back in areas in an attempt to keep the tires in the right range. This is what I suspected early on. The car is quick, the team just can't figure out how to keep the tires in the right range. The Amus article also states that Mclaren, Red Bull and Ferrari all run similar linked suspension systems, but not at all the tracks. This car is either very tricky to dial in, or there needs to be some different solutions on how to keep the tires in the temperature range.

But tell me why they still burn their tyres quicker than anyone else ?

The dialing in of understeer or what have you to bring the tyres in the right temperature range is not a feature worth hiding when you have no result coming from this activity.They are slower than before and still have to change tyres more often than others -where is the benefit?

[dren]

The Amus article states that the W03 has gone through 3 rear end geometry changes already. They have worked extensively with aero and mechanical weight distribution over the season. The issue seems to be getting and keeping all 4 tires in the narrow temperature range. It sounds like the performance has been dialed back in areas in an attempt to keep the tires in the right range. This is what I suspected early on. The car is quick, the team just can't figure out how to keep the tires in the right range. The Amus article also states that Mclaren, Red Bull and Ferrari all run similar linked suspension systems, but not at all the tracks. This car is either very tricky to dial in, or there needs to be some different solutions on how to keep the tires in the temperature range.

But tell me why they still burn their tyres quicker than anyone else ?

Because they haven't fixed the underlying issue... Like I stated, either the car is tricky to dial in or they need to go down a different route, or both or neither. Who knows. Maybe Mercedes should just quit so we can't discuss further.

[FoxHound]

Who else ran SWB cars in 2011? This is a leading question.....

[marcush.]

Don`t bow out here.
why would you sacrifice absolute speed for equalized tyre temps when the end result still is short lived tyres? It absolutely makes no sense.
They had this tyre eating phenomenon in all but two races for what ever reason .It did not really change when they dropped the front cascades really.

[SSS]

Who else ran SWB cars in 2011? This is a leading question.....

Ferrari,probably Force India and quite a few other teams like Hispania, Marussia ran a shorter Wheel-Base

[dren]

Don`t bow out here.
why would you sacrifice absolute speed for equalized tyre temps when the end result still is short lived tyres? It absolutely makes no sense.
They had this tyre eating phenomenon in all but two races for what ever reason .It did not really change when they dropped the front cascades really.

I understand your reasoning, and I ask the same questions. I don't think the results matched expectations.

Maybe the tire modeling software the team uses is to blame. The problem seems to be different every year as to why the tires are not lasting or working properly. But the team doesn't seem to be able to quite solve the issue either. There has to be one root cause to this. I have confidence in any F1 team to engineer a fix to the problem, but the fixes put in place haven't solved the issue. So either they don't understand the issue, or the data/tools they are using to understand/fix the issue aren't reliable.

[turbof1]

Worthwile to note is that they started concerning the tyres on relative equal foot with the competition: they all had problems with getting the tyres into the correct window at some races. But unlike Mercedes, the competition didn't removed any downforce at the front. Even more interesting is that Red Bull does not have any of the problems Mercedes has, with both having ddrs. Also to note is that mercedes tried out a different drag reduction device a la Renault.
So Mercedes supposedly went the wrong route with tackling the problem. It really must be their ddrs that is working against them. They should copy the Red Bull solution and abandon stalling the front wing; given how remarkably stable the rb is in the corners even with so much rear downforce removed, there is no reason to not do so.

[user001]

i do not believe merc's ddrs is responsible for the tyre problems. this is an issue they've got for years now and i suppose this is a basic design error/issue. wondering why they still couldn't solve it. i mean this is quite embarrassing. merc is one of the big teams and considering their manpower they cannot solve the rear tyre problem and sacrifice front downforce? nobody knows... but as Brawn repeating that the main focus is to understand the tyres.... the tells us this EVERY race since monaco and almost only this. i mean he cannot reveal what they are doing in detail. but with him repeating and stressing it every race i got of the intention that they are desperate and do not know what to do. and this is a shame and i don't think they will improve this the next year if they are not capable of changing and solving problems during a season or even come up with upgrades. seems to me most of the merc engineering crew is really slowly and ineffective in what they're doing. and this is someting you can not change simply by buying in bell/costa/elliot/....... i doubt the overall capacity of the merc team not only his head engineers. maybe most of them are simply unexperienced since brawn had to fire 60% of all team workers i 2009.

[dren]

The Amus article was pretty good. It stated the team has already gone through numerous rear end suspension geometries, fitted a lighter weight gearbox, and balanced downforce across the car. They have also tried several suspension set-ups. Remember how much the cars used to roll compared to the competition?

Don't forget, this team came with almost a B spec car early on. Then upgrades were all focused on the tire degredation. The aero upgrades seem to work fairly well, but the upgrades/changes to help with the tires have not helped much. There has to be something wrong in the whole data/interpret/design process reguarding the tires.