McLaren dump Mercedes?

[FW17]

WilliamsF1,

BMW had two full years to prepare for their debut with Team Williams in 2000 and they had an engine in the back of a Williams car for much of 1999 testing on various circuits in Europe. You cannot do the same thing now with limited testing during the year.

Williams-BMW did do okay in 2000 and scored some wins in 2001. But after that, performance dropped sharply.

It's like any new entrant into the sport. They have a long time to prepare for their debut season, but the proof of the pudding is in the second and third season when they really have to get their act together developing for the current season and simultaneously prepare for the car/engine of the next season.

Remove Ferrari from that equation and compare them against Mercedes through the same period

2001 - better than Merc
2002 - better than Merc
2003 - better than Merc
2004 - better than Merc

There is no restriction on testing. All teams competing currently are allowed unlimited testing with a chaise that is 2 years old. Any new entrants can do what they please till they enter the FIA championship.

[FoxHound]

@Williams F1

Once Berylium was banned from the Mercedes Ilmor engines, it set Mercedes back years. From 2001, Mercedes had to develop all new engines from clean sheet design.

[wunderkind]

WilliamsF1,

BMW had two full years to prepare for their debut with Team Williams in 2000 and they had an engine in the back of a Williams car for much of 1999 testing on various circuits in Europe. You cannot do the same thing now with limited testing during the year.

Williams-BMW did do okay in 2000 and scored some wins in 2001. But after that, performance dropped sharply.

It's like any new entrant into the sport. They have a long time to prepare for their debut season, but the proof of the pudding is in the second and third season when they really have to get their act together developing for the current season and simultaneously prepare for the car/engine of the next season.

Remove Ferrari from that equation and compare them against Mercedes through the same period

2001 - better than Merc
2002 - better than Merc
2003 - better than Merc
2004 - better than Merc

There is no restriction on testing. All teams competing currently are allowed unlimited testing with a chaise that is 2 years old. Any new entrants can do what they please till they enter the FIA championship.

Yes, but I'd say it was those fragile Newey McLarens to blame more than the Mercedes engines.

[FW17]

@Williams F1

Once Berylium was banned from the Mercedes Ilmor engines, it set Mercedes back years. From 2001, Mercedes had to develop all new engines from clean sheet design.

Exactly

This was then replaced by MMC, led by BMW. MMC was tech from outside F1.

[FoxHound]

Exactly

This was then replaced by MMC, led by BMW. MMC was tech from outside F1.

I'm not so sure about that.

I found this in the F1 tech archives...

BMW can now confirm that it didn’t ever use MMC pistons through these naturally aspirated Formula One engines, nor did it ever run DLC-coated piston skirts. Back in 2000 Dr Theissen didn’t give away much about the E41/4 internals, other than to confirm the use of conventional Mahle pistons, Goetze rings and Pankl con rods. We are now informed that the rods were titanium throughout these engines, all of which had “liners integrated into the casting, the cylinder bores using BMW’s own nickel-dispersion coating”.

[bhall]

I think McLaren should just buy Cosworth outright. It's for sale; it's British; it's the progenitor of the DFV engine that beat countless Ferrari engines; and it would give them the infrastructure and expertise needed to design and build engines for their road cars.

[wunderkind]

If the reports are true, I say Mercedes must be glad McLaren is initiating the breakup. It would otherwise cost Mercedes a few million to terminate the relationship early.

I just cannot see McLaren winning the championship in the next two to four years.

Ron Dennis used to say Ferrari was on their fifth year of their three year plan to win the championship. I now wonder if McLaren is going down the same path.

As for the Honda engine, what happens if Bernie and LdM get their way and keep the V8s for a few more years? Honda doesn't have a current spec V8 lying around somewhere do they? If you think along these lines, I doubt McLaren is initiating a breakup and Honda will probably not enter F1 until the engine formula is set in stone.

I would be surprised if an early termination would cost Merc any money. All reports agree that McLaren are paying customer prices. Both parties probably have options. But paying them a penalty is an unlikely one in my view.

If the report from the FiA meeting is correct the issue of a further delay should be off the table.

Why have a contract in the first place if both parties have a right of exit (out clause)?

[dren]

Rumor is Honda already has the engine design done. They have dyno'd a single cylinder. It is now up to the board to sign off. Mclaren will have to pay for Mercedes engines, and they likely will not for Honda power. So...sounds close.

[WhiteBlue]

If the reports are true, I say Mercedes must be glad McLaren is initiating the breakup. It would otherwise cost Mercedes a few million to terminate the relationship early.

I just cannot see McLaren winning the championship in the next two to four years.

Ron Dennis used to say Ferrari was on their fifth year of their three year plan to win the championship. I now wonder if McLaren is going down the same path.

As for the Honda engine, what happens if Bernie and LdM get their way and keep the V8s for a few more years? Honda doesn't have a current spec V8 lying around somewhere do they? If you think along these lines, I doubt McLaren is initiating a breakup and Honda will probably not enter F1 until the engine formula is set in stone.

I would be surprised if an early termination would cost Merc any money. All reports agree that McLaren are paying customer prices. Both parties probably have options. But paying them a penalty is an unlikely one in my view.

If the report from the FiA meeting is correct the issue of a further delay should be off the table.

Why have a contract in the first place if both parties have a right of exit (out clause)?

The contract mainly dealt with the partnership years with a bunch of options tacked to the back for eventualities. As we now see the post partnership phase isn't really that exciting for both of them.

[astracrazy]

Rumor is Honda already has the engine design done. They have dyno'd a single cylinder. It is now up to the board to sign off. Mclaren will have to pay for Mercedes engines, and they likely will not for Honda power. So...sounds close.

why would they not have to pay for Honda engines?

[dren]

Rumor is Honda already has the engine design done. They have dyno'd a single cylinder. It is now up to the board to sign off. Mclaren will have to pay for Mercedes engines, and they likely will not for Honda power. So...sounds close.

why would they not have to pay for Honda engines?

Because Honda would likely be the supplier, with a big H on the car.

[PlatinumZealot]

These new turbo engines don't sound as high-tech in many ways as the older V10 screamers. The rev limit is reduced 15k, but likely 12k useable(from the Renault article in Racecar Engineering). This is where high end road cars are now. Most new road car engines use DI, and many use turbos (at lower pressure though). The block will be aluminum, nothing fancy. I see the big gains in the mechanical-electrical marriage. That area is pretty exciting.

On another site, a Honda insider is somewhat optimistic on Honda jumping back into F1 with Mclaren.

You couldn't be more wrong with that statement.
The current F1 engine is a dinosaur. No VVt, no VVL, no fancy coatings, lame jane crankshaft, lame jane camshafts lame jane everything... Mechanically the are dinosaurs - Ultra-refined dinosaurs.The Swiss made watch of the F1 world.


Note.. I am not taking about KERS, just the engines in and of themselves.

[OppositeLock]

Honda haven't had much success since in modern F1. They use F1 as a training ground for their engineers. They always seemed to be starting from scratch with BAR and Super Aguri. Renault came back to F1 a few years later and has had much more success. I remember around 2002 when both Renault and Honda were experimenting with a radical wide-angle V10 engine which was eventually abandoned by both. Honda engines were famous for being heavy, high center of gravity hand grenades. It would be nostalgic to see McLaren-Honda on the grid but I doubt it would be anything else.

[Raptor22]

@Williams F1

Once Berylium was banned from the Mercedes Ilmor engines, it set Mercedes back years. From 2001, Mercedes had to develop all new engines from clean sheet design.

Oh really, sure it was not just the liners and bearings that were changed out...
You absolutely sure...

[wunderkind]

@Williams F1

Once Berylium was banned from the Mercedes Ilmor engines, it set Mercedes back years. From 2001, Mercedes had to develop all new engines from clean sheet design.

Oh really, sure it was not just the liners and bearings that were changed out...
You absolutely sure...

Of equal importance, Paul Morgan's passing had a massive impact on the manufacturing side of Mercedes ilmor at that time.