Scuderia Ferrari 2012

[raymondu999]

Had he still had a points cushion, then playing percentages and playing the long game might still have worked, but now he has to go for it.

There was a comment a while back in Autosport that was intriguing, by Mark Webber. He said that Fernando wasn't very tough, and was very predictable - and you always knew what Fernando would do, and the column moved on to say that Mark was perhaps alluding to Alonso being a percentage player.

IMO he's been consistent, but to be consistent you're either going to have to be in the lead (like Vettel) or be a bit of a percentage player, a la Button. A bit of gung ho-ness is definitely going to be lost.

[donskar]

The F2012 is too far behind the RBR to catch AND pass it this year. Ferrari started too far behind. They probably improved the F2012 more than Newey and company improved the RBR, but that merely decreased the gap; it did not erase the gap. It could be said that RBR did a better job this year -- they developed a good design into a very good design. Ferrari had the easier job -- improving a basically flawed design.

Ferrari has the driver. They have a competetive engine and excellent reliability. Their pit stops are good and strategy is no worse than average. Tire usage is above average. What is lacking is Newey -- or someone good enough to come close to his ability. A miracle couild happen, but it is stupid to count on it. Now is the time (if it is not already too late) for Ferrari to address their technical shortcomings in order to give Alonso the car he deserves next year.

[raymondu999]

I don't think it was a fundamentally flawed design. Sure they had some mistakes in terms of the little gimmicks such as the exhausts, etc but I think the fundamental base design is actually still not bad. Sure the implementation was bad in a few areas, but the chassis is good methinks.

After all they're only half a second off in qualifying - that's less than 2 blinks of the eye - and are seemingly equal to Red Bull on race pace (yes, you could make the case that Vettel was cruising, but you could see Vettel was pushing for fastest lap on the final tour, and Alonso was quicker that lap.

[godlameroso]

To be honest the Red Bull is still slightly faster, but the difference, in the race at least, is probably negligible, and down to the driver. As it is right now Ferrari share the title of fastest car with Red Bull, and the McLaren is right on it's heels. Given that the top three are so close together, whoever has a slight qualifying advantage can convert it into a huge advantage in the race. The car that starts out in front has clean air, so no turbulence inducing understeer, as such they can manage the tires much better. I'm sure if Alonso started in front with Massa as a buffer for everyone behind he could could coast to the win.

Let's see if their new found top speed helps in the next race.

[raymondu999]

In my own data crunching based on Friday, I had Alonso as a tenth quicker than Vettel on the long runs. Had he been on pole, I'm positive he would have pulled away from the field (including Vettel).

As I also said above, Vettel was pushing for fastest lap in the end, but was still pipped by Alonso (before Senna and Button pipped them both)

I think the Ferrari is at least the equal of Red Bull, based on the last two grands prix. But it needs to qualify higher in order to be clear of traffic.

[kebab]

This could be true but the question is if they set the cars up in favor of qualify speed then would it compromise the race pace and if that is the case would they still be on par with RBR during the race. I doubt they would.

[raymondu999]

Yep, that is true. Obviously Ferrari have biased their setup in this fashion, and perhaps it is the best for their car. Maybe if they se up for even a tenth more quali pace they'd lose 3 tenths in the race. Maybe, maybe, maybe... I think Ferrari, with their data on the car, should know the best setup compromises in terms of biasing between race and quali pace, and so we have to take it as it is.

But my point is that I think at this point in time, the Ferrari is an underrated race (as opposed to qualifying) car

[kebab]

But my point is that I think at this point in time, the Ferrari is an underrated race (as opposed to qualifying) car

+1

[jonaliew]

Forgive me if this sounds really amateur, but if we were to do a high DF set up and compromise on top speed for qualy, does it mean the same set up has to go on for Sunday's race?

[kebab]

Forgive me if this sounds really amateur, but if we were to do a high DF set up and compromise on top speed for qualy, does it mean the same set up has to go on for Sunday's race?

Once you change the setup for qualify you wont be able to change it back for the race as after qualifying the cars go under parc ferme until the race start.

[max_speed]

In my own data crunching based on Friday, I had Alonso as a tenth quicker than Vettel on the long runs. Had he been on pole, I'm positive he would have pulled away from the field (including Vettel).

As I also said above, Vettel was pushing for fastest lap in the end, but was still pipped by Alonso (before Senna and Button pipped them both)

I think the Ferrari is at least the equal of Red Bull, based on the last two grands prix. But it needs to qualify higher in order to be clear of traffic.

well said ... if some how ferrari places Alonso behind Vettel in qualifying , alonso will eat him in the very first corner .. right now vettel is being protected by "Mark" , he has become his custodian , his only objective in race is to "give" pole position back to vettel and then protect him like his baby.

i pray to GOD to put Alonso in between "vettel" and "webber" and that day will deliver the answer to question . who is better.. ?

[f1316]

I think the relative pace is very similar to 2010: the Ferrari is the second fastest car, it can stick with the RB but not quite enough to beat it on outright pace (without any issues).

Look at 2010 Brazil. Alonso stuck with the RBs, but couldn't get close enough. The RBs are able to just ease back a little bit from time to time, and push if they need to. If Webber hadn't had his KERs issue, I don't think Alonso would have got by. He might have due to superior straightline speed, but he was consistently too far going into the straight in order to fully use KERs./DRS/better top speed.

So Ferrari need more, even on race pace, I think. The RBs pace is similar, but were they pushing outright - as in the first stint - they've got that bit more.

Alonso is talking of updates deriving from their recent tests coming to the next two races. I would imagine we'd be looking at further updates on the front wing, which is still not a patch on some of the others in the pit lane, and that alone, if done well enough, could be a decent step.

[raymondu999]

I think the Ferrari has equal race pace, but worse off quali pace.

[f1316]

I think the Ferrari has equal race pace, but worse off quali pace.

I think it's clear that the quali isn't as good and the race pace is very similar. If you look at the first stint, yesterday, though, where the RBs were less likely to be looking after issues/saving fuel etc. they were consitently faster.

Might also be a carry over from quali though - i.e. RB are much better at getting the softer tyre up to tempeature and that, on a track where thermal degradation didn't seem much of issue, they were significantly faster. But there's no doubt about it, Alonso was 6s back after getting past Button and 13s back when he pitted. He couldn't match them.

I suspect we're getting a long way off topic for a car thread, but also that you think Alonso is trying to downplay his car to make himself look better. Apologies if this is not what you think. I personally think Massa is still a pretty decent baseline for a car that's working well, so we can see how well Alonso generally does.

EDIT: great illustration of Alonso's pace against Massa's in the race: http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... dr1=Felipe Massa&dr2=Fernando Alonso

[raymondu999]

you think Alonso is trying to downplay his car to make himself look better. Apologies if this is not what you think.

I do think that. Maybe not necessarily with the explicit intention of making himself look better, but yeah. For example IIRC he was calling his car the 3rd quickest yesterday, and said that he was only able to get to the podium because the McLarens forgot to cover him, and because he was "pushing 120%" the whole race.

Alonso is relentless and doesn't generally make mistakes, but I don't believe for a second that he is able to transcend physics and push the car 120% - he is a damn good driver, one of if not the best, but he is still human and constrained within the bounds of physics

I personally think Massa is still a pretty decent baseline for a car that's working well, so we can see how well Alonso generally does.

I personally don't - so we have a fundamental disagreement there that neither one of us can prove nor disprove, which turns this whole discussion into a dead end really!