Ferrari F2012

[Abarth]

AMuS are reporting rear wing deficiency on DRS, which is hampering Q pace.

I saw that, but I'm not sure how much truth is in it. I'm not sure that's their main problem. If you were to accept their assertion, then why does it work itself out for the race?[...]

AMuS is showing speed difference between DRS on and off between corner 4 and 5 in India, where the cars are using always DRS in qualy but not in the race. Speed difference between DRS on in qualy and DRS off in race is:
Alonso +3,8 km/h
Vettel +9,6 km/h
Hamilton +11,0 km/h
Räikkönen +11,4 km/h
Button +10,1 km/h
Webber +10,6 km/h
Hülkenberg +8,4 km/h
Rosberg +10,7 km/h

So it seems to be a substancial difference here, but of course gearing may have some influence on this speed differential.

Another point, at least in India, is that Ferrari was relatively slower on the softs also in the race, whereas with the hards they seemed to be on par with RB. So another problöem for qualy, when you are slower (relatively) with the faster compound.
Maybe the car has some problems with the softs, not being able to bring them into the operating window. I remember Luigi Mazzola stating that the "hards" have a low working range (i.e. temperature level at which they work well) and the "softs" a high working range.
Maybe Farrari struggles to set up the car to comply with both tire requirements? Webber won Silverstone because Ferrari had a similar issue.....

[Crucial_Xtreme]

But isn't the theory that the more drag is shed via the DRS, the more downforce can be added to the rear for the corners? Therefore the more efficient the DRS, the better the set up balance for the parts of the track requiring high downforce?

This would also point to Ferrari, running less downforce in order to maintain a good top speed, getting a relative benefit during the race.

Yes and no. Obviously the DRS(open) sheds drag. But that doesn't mean they can just add lots of DF because there is only one(sometimes two) DRS points on track and other straights in which too much DF would cost the car too much time.

DRS is tricky because teams need to optimize Cl vs Cd both with and without DRS activated.

Even if Ferrari run less overall DF to get better top speed, still is not an explanation of the performance difference seen between Quali & the race. The drivers are allowed to use DRS in Quali so they're not gaining any advantage from it during the race, that they're not in Quali.

I can see if the F2012 has a Cl to Cd deficiency being a reason why the F2012 isn't as competitive as some of the other cars however it doesn't explain the lack of one lap Quali pace and doesn't explain why the car is much more competitive in the race versus Quali.
The jist that I got from the article is that DRS is the F2012's problem in Quali but that doesn't make sense to me


Edit: after re-reading the page, I guess they're saying that since you can use DRS freely in Quali & not in the race, the F012 deficiency is leveled out more during the race since it can't be used at will which explains somewhat the performance difference. I'm still a little skeptical but after thinking about it more, I think I see their point.

[Abarth]

If you have a DRS which will allow a greater speed difference between activated and not activated than your competition, you have a bonus in qualification. That seems quite obvious to me.

Difficulty is to make such a rear wing work without risk that the stream hesitates to reattach, Mercedes had such issues AFAIR.

[Ferrari2183]

AMuS are reporting rear wing deficiency on DRS, which is hampering Q pace.

I saw that, but I'm not sure how much truth is in it. I'm not sure that's their main problem. If you were to accept their assertion, then why does it work itself out for the race?

I remember Lewis saying how quick Mark was through some of the curves in India, which points to better grip & more DF. But I don't see RW deficiency being a problem for Quali and then suddenly working itself out for the race.


Edit: it should also be noted the gurney flap on the new spec diffuser now wraps around all the way to the floor like McLarens does.

Look at it this way...

All things equal, let us say that with the current DRS, for a given AoA the car generates x amount of downforce in its normal state while it sheds (x -2) which on a given track will equate to 310kph down the straight when DRS is activated.

Now let's say that, with a more efficient DRS, for the same given AoA the car generates the same x amount of downforce in its normal state while it sheds (x - 3) which on the same given track will equate to 315kph down the straight when DRS is activated.

It then stands to reason that with the more efficient version of the DRS wing you can increase the AoA of the wing thus giving more downforce for same 310kph as the old wing, ceteris paribus. This though would marginally affect your straight line speed in the race though but with a downforce boost much like the Red Bull now.

If the wing is more efficient in its entirety then you could possibly get the same straight line speed as per the lower AoA with the DRS closed but I removed it from the equation for simplicity.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Look at it this way...

All things equal, let us say that with the current DRS, for a given AoA the car generates x amount of downforce in its normal state while it sheds (x -2) which on a given track will equate to 310kph down the straight when DRS is activated.

Now let's say that, with a more efficient DRS, for the same given AoA the car generates the same x amount of downforce in its normal state while it sheds (x - 3) which on the same given track will equate to 315kph down the straight when DRS is activated.

It then stands to reason that with the more efficient version of the DRS wing you can increase the AoA of the wing thus giving more downforce for same 310kph as the old wing, ceteris paribus. This though would marginally affect your straight line speed in the race though but with a downforce boost much like the Red Bull now.

If the wing is more efficient in its entirety then you could possibly get the same straight line speed as per the lower AoA with the DRS closed but I removed it from the equation for simplicity.

I understand what you're saying, that's obvious. However it doesn't explain the performance difference between Quali & the race.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

If you have a DRS which will allow a greater speed difference between activated and not activated than your competition, you have a bonus in qualification. That seems quite obvious to me.
.

Of course, but that doesn't explain the difference of pace of the F2012 in Quali versus the race

[Abarth]

I understand what you're saying, that's obvious. However it doesn't explain the performance difference between Quali & the race.

You can't use DRS in race, but you can in qualy. The car with a more efficient DRS (more gain in straight line speed) can be quicker in qualy but will not in the race.
Of course, it's questionable if this difference explains 0.3s or so.

[Abarth]

If you have a DRS which will allow a greater speed difference between activated and not activated than your competition, you have a bonus in qualification. That seems quite obvious to me.
.

Of course, but that doesn't explain the difference of pace of the F2012 in Quali versus the race

Now I'm confused.
Which pace difference are you talking about? Relative vs. RB?

[Ferrari2183]

Look at it this way...

All things equal, let us say that with the current DRS, for a given AoA the car generates x amount of downforce in its normal state while it sheds (x -2) which on a given track will equate to 310kph down the straight when DRS is activated.

Now let's say that, with a more efficient DRS, for the same given AoA the car generates the same x amount of downforce in its normal state while it sheds (x - 3) which on the same given track will equate to 315kph down the straight when DRS is activated.

It then stands to reason that with the more efficient version of the DRS wing you can increase the AoA of the wing thus giving more downforce for same 310kph as the old wing, ceteris paribus. This though would marginally affect your straight line speed in the race though but with a downforce boost much like the Red Bull now.

If the wing is more efficient in its entirety then you could possibly get the same straight line speed as per the lower AoA with the DRS closed but I removed it from the equation for simplicity.

I understand what you're saying, that's obvious. However it doesn't explain the performance difference between Quali & the race.

You can't really compare qualifying pace to race pace. In the race they run at much lower average speeds and downforce squares with speed, meaning the faster you go the more downforce you generate. Ferrari's downforce deficiency is simply not as noticeable in race trim and it has been this way pretty much since 2010.

Also in the race, assuming no DRS, the efficiency when the wing is closed is what matters and it is quite possible that the Ferrari wing works like a charm when closed.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

I understand what you're saying, that's obvious. However it doesn't explain the performance difference between Quali & the race.

You can't use DRS in race, but you can in qualy. The car with a more efficient DRS (more gain in straight line speed) can be quicker in qualy but will not in the race.
Of course, it's questionable if this difference explains 0.3s or so.

Right, I got that this is what AMuS meant, I edited my original post. As I said before I can now see what they're saying however I'm still a little skeptical as DRS is only open but so much even in Quali. Interesting this only seems to affect Ferrari. It seems I recall seeing that the F2012 w/out DRS activated was about as fast as the Lotus with it.

But other than lack of DF & not getting the tyres into optimum working temp range, this would be about the only explanation for the performance difference between Quali & the race.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

You can't really compare qualifying pace to race pace. In the race they run at much lower average speeds and downforce squares with speed, meaning the faster you go the more downforce you generate. Ferrari's downforce deficiency is simply not as noticeable in race trim and it has been this way pretty much since 2010.

Also in the race, assuming no DRS, the efficiency when the wing is closed is what matters and it is quite possible that the Ferrari wing works like a charm when closed.

Yes you can and have to compare the Quali pace versus the race pace. It's exactly what AMuS is doing & something the drivers do each weekend. That is the problem. In Quali Ferrari can't match the pace of its rivals however in the race it can(more or less). Therefore a distinction has to be made as to what is the root cause of the problem. AMuS says it doesn't shed enough drag when the DRS is open. That may or may not be true but you certainly have to compare why you're(the team) competitive in one setting & not the other.

[raymondu999]

Why are you looking towards a Ferrari quali problem though?

I mean, what's to say that it's not a Red bull quali benefit, rather than a Ferrari quali problem?

The Red Bull DDRS seems to fit the story.

[ten_marco]

Now yes!
This is the technical blog that I was interested from the beginning!
Without speculation!! Only discussions of the pieces shown here as DRS and diffuser! This is rather technical blog!
Do not know if it's just me, but the comments when vai Alogoc only speculate!
lol

[hollus]

If they ditch DRS, then the second element of the rear wing should get much bigger. They only got as small as they are now with the DRS rule, where a small second flap allows it to get horizontal with a 50mm movement of the leading edge.

Remember when rear wings used to look like this ... and one would get stuck behind Petrov for 40+ laps?


It kind of makes sense. With proper blowing exhausts teams had an excess of rear downforce, so they shrunk that second element for the quali and overtaking gain and front wings grew more and more elements. This year, with the loosely blown diffusers, it is rear downforce that is lacking. This would be a way to claw it back. This also fits perfect with the type of thing one could test in 3 days of straight line testing behind closed curtains.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Why are you looking towards a Ferrari quali problem though?

I mean, what's to say that it's not a Red bull quali benefit, rather than a Ferrari quali problem?

The Red Bull DDRS seems to fit the story.

It's been a problem long before RB's DDRS. The lack of Quali pace has been evident all year long.