Ferrari F2012

[dren]

Wow, that does make a lot of sense.

It might also explain in what way the new rear wing was not doing exactly what they expected to. Perhaps aerodynamically it is interacting with the air as it should, but they still have the issue Anderson mentions.

edit: if the driver has instability on corner entry then yeah, that's going to affect lap time

What he describes is what it sounded like the car was doing in preseason testing. I would have expected the team to solve the issues by now.

Also, it sort of is a Catch 22 here. The rear wing is open when in DRS, so you dump drag for a higher top speed, but you also lose DF. Then, if the diffuser does stall at a higher speed, you once again lose DF and thus the car should lift up and reattach the choked diffuser. Also, the car will run higher in qualification because it has to in order to take the fuel weight for the race.

I would be more inclined to think the diffuser leaks when braking because there is less exhaust gas sealing the sides, thus losing rear DF. This could have been the issue in testing when their exhaust wasn't working as expected.

The biggest issue with Ferrari is/was their windtunnel.

[dren]

Gary Anderson is an idiot at times. He has some good ideas and insight but then he goes on to try to explain how confidence in driving a car that handles better somehow grants you quicker lap times when you want it. A car has its limits. Drivers can keep that little extra in the bag, or they can try to wring what they can out of the car on every lap. Vettel is able to find that extra few tenths in Q3 because he doesn't push as hard in the previous two sessions. That has nothing to do with how confidence inspiring the car is. A more confidence inspiring car will make it easier for a less skilled driver to find the maximum. That is likely why there is such a huge gap between Alonso and Massa at times.

That's not what he's saying.

He's saying, firstly, that the F2012 doesn't inspire driver confidence, and the Red Bull does.

But he's also saying that the track goes quicker from Q2 to Q3. He says that a car like the F2012 which doesn't inspire driver confidence - will mean the driver doesn't have the confidence to improve with the circuit.

I understand what he is saying about the car inspiring driver confidence. The pace should go up, even if the car doesn't inspire driver confidence, with a good driver such as Alonso when the track conditions improve.

[amouzouris]

"But, Gary, Alonso did run a less aggressive DRS package in Abu Dhabi."





"See, Gary? The larger and more numerous end plate vents on Massa's rear wing means it shed more downforce/drag when DRS was activated than did Alonso's wing. Got any more explanations, big guy?"

Couldnt agree more..for some reason Gary Andreson thinks the rest of the world is stupid..and that he can just make up something and everyone will believe it

[timbo]

Couldnt agree more..for some reason Gary Andreson thinks the rest of the world is stupid..and that he can just make up something and everyone will believe it

Well, that could explain the results of the cars he designed...

[f1316]

"But, Gary, Alonso did run a less aggressive DRS package in Abu Dhabi."





"See, Gary? The larger and more numerous end plate vents on Massa's rear wing means it shed more downforce/drag when DRS was activated than did Alonso's wing. Got any more explanations, big guy?"

Couldnt agree more..for some reason Gary Andreson thinks the rest of the world is stupid..and that he can just make up something and everyone will believe it

But isn't it also true that the rear wing didn't work 100% as expected, only 50%? Perhaps this is the very issue that they weren't able to fix.

[Intego]

...
Also, it sort of is a Catch 22 here. The rear wing is open when in DRS, so you dump drag for a higher top speed, but you also lose DF. Then, if the diffuser does stall at a higher speed, you once again lose DF and thus the car should lift up and reattach the choked diffuser. Also, the car will run higher in qualification because it has to in order to take the fuel weight for the race.
...

+1 That's why MGP are running their FW DRS, to level the car, because the back lifts under DRS.

[bhall]

But isn't it also true that the rear wing didn't work 100% as expected, only 50%? Perhaps this is the very issue that they weren't able to fix.

Can you think of anything on the F2012 that's worked as expected?

The solution to Mr. Anderson's problem is a longer chord length for the rear wing flap. Such a configuration produces more downforce, but at the cost of reduced DRS efficacy, because the larger flap maintains a significant AoA when DRS is deployed. That's why teams quickly adopted the short-chord flaps we see today. Their size means they can be held in-line with the air stream with effectively no AoA when DRS is deployed. Any team would be swamped in DRS zones without that layout.

[aral]

"But, Gary, Alonso did run a less aggressive DRS package in Abu Dhabi."





"See, Gary? The larger and more numerous end plate vents on Massa's rear wing means it shed more downforce/drag when DRS was activated than did Alonso's wing. Got any more explanations, big guy?"

Couldnt agree more..for some reason Gary Andreson thinks the rest of the world is stupid..and that he can just make up something and everyone will believe it

I think that Andersons thoughts are just as valid, if not more so, than many of the aero experts here.
It is very easy to sit behind a keyboard and pronounce that all the highly paid aero experts at Ferrari are wrong. But funny, they are the ones that are being paid by Ferrari.

[jtc127]

If the whole point of DRS is to shed Downforce, and hence drag, why would the rear drop under DRS use? If anything we would expect the 3rd spring or heave spring to raise the rear as soon as the DRS opens.

The diffuser should become more effective as it gets closer to the ground up until a point where it gets choked. Where that point is for the ferrari diffuser is anyone's guess.

[amouzouris]

"But, Gary, Alonso did run a less aggressive DRS package in Abu Dhabi."





"See, Gary? The larger and more numerous end plate vents on Massa's rear wing means it shed more downforce/drag when DRS was activated than did Alonso's wing. Got any more explanations, big guy?"

Couldnt agree more..for some reason Gary Andreson thinks the rest of the world is stupid..and that he can just make up something and everyone will believe it

I think that Andersons thoughts are just as valid, if not more so, than many of the aero experts here.
It is very easy to sit behind a keyboard and pronounce that all the highly paid aero experts at Ferrari are wrong. But funny, they are the ones that are being paid by Ferrari.

But what we are saying is that Andreson is wrong..not the guys working in the Ferrari factory...

[aral]

But what we are saying is that Andreson is wrong..not the guys working in the Ferrari factory...

And your aero qualifications are...................................????????

Maybe it is in "your opinion" that Anderson is wrong, but that does not make him wrong!

[amouzouris]

But what we are saying is that Andreson is wrong..not the guys working in the Ferrari factory...

And your aero qualifications are...................................????????

Maybe it is in "your opinion" that Anderson is wrong, but that does not make him wrong!

Did i ever claim that what i am saying is anything more than my opinion?

EDIT: besides, Gary Anderson is saying his opinion as well...and i disagree with him

[munudeges]

Well, that could explain the results of the cars he designed...

Well, I would say that dragging a completely new team in Jordan from literally nothing to scoring points and on its way to winning races and repeating the feat at Stewart to the same position is a pretty reasonable track record. When Jaguar took over Stewart Anderson left and they went downhill very quickly. I'm not too sure what results of his cars you consider bad.

[timbo]

Well, that could explain the results of the cars he designed...

Well, I would say that dragging a completely new team in Jordan from literally nothing to scoring points and on its way to winning races and repeating the feat at Stewart to the same position is a pretty reasonable track record. When Jaguar took over Stewart Anderson left and they went downhill very quickly. I'm not too sure what results of his cars you consider bad.

I'm not saying they were necessarily bad, just that he never seemed to be able to sustain a constant development. His designs could be great one year and terrible another. Maybe not his fault, but who knows.

Besides, his current idea of a Ferrari problem is easily remedied without any alteration of the car -- just ask driver to close DRS a moment before the brake application. They would cope with it, just like they did with f-duct contraptions.
And the car's failure to improve Q3 results is most likely because of the temperature drop as Ferrari struggles to heat tyres over one lap.

[Lorenzo_Bandini]

Well, that could explain the results of the cars he designed...

Well, I would say that dragging a completely new team in Jordan from literally nothing to scoring points and on its way to winning races and repeating the feat at Stewart to the same position is a pretty reasonable track record. When Jaguar took over Stewart Anderson left and they went downhill very quickly. I'm not too sure what results of his cars you consider bad.

Besides, his current idea of a Ferrari problem is easily remedied without any alteration of the car -- just ask driver to close DRS a moment before the brake application. They would cope with it, just like they did with f-duct contraptions.

But the DRS of Ferrari is with a pedal, and when the driver left the pedal the DRS close, so it is close before the driver brake