A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Coefficient wrote:
Short wheelbase is the wrong philosophy for the current regulations. They want the rake on the car because if they're running rake it means they are successfully sealing the diffuser from tyre squirt with the exhausts. A longer car will use the rake better than a shorter one, see W02.
Maybe it is better to have a long car because the sealing is more successful, but the if you want to bring the front wing closer to the ground a shorter car is better. This was what I wanted to say. But maybe you're right that a longer car is better
I really can't see the point of a higher chassis. You get a car with a different CoG and balance. Why risk that for a marginal aero gain?? The MP4-27 was the fastest car on the grid most of the season. And it didnt have a high chassis. So i cant see why they should go with a different philosophy with the MP4-28.
Holm86 wrote:I really can't see the point of a higher chassis. You get a car with a different CoG and balance. Why risk that for a marginal aero gain?? The MP4-27 was the fastest car on the grid most of the season. And it didnt have a high chassis. So i cant see why they should go with a different philosophy with the MP4-28.
One should not forget the car converged throughout the year toward the mainstream philosophy. Compare the car at the start of the testing days to the race in Brazil. It's only expected that they will continue to do this and so a higher chassis is more likely then you might think.
Holm86 wrote:I really can't see the point of a higher chassis. You get a car with a different CoG and balance. Why risk that for a marginal aero gain?? The MP4-27 was the fastest car on the grid most of the season. And it didnt have a high chassis. So i cant see why they should go with a different philosophy with the MP4-28.
One should not forget the car converged throughout the year toward the mainstream philosophy. Compare the car at the start of the testing days to the race in Brazil. It's only expected that they will continue to do this and so a higher chassis is more likely then you might think.
The chassis stayed the same. So the know balance of the car didnt change. Updates just added to the performance. If you change the chassis to a completly new philosophy you cant use many of the datas gained over this past season. I cant see why they should go with a design revolutuin rather than an evolution of the current chassis.
Red Bull has had alot of success developing a car baised on the same philosophy over several years.
And if they go with front pull rod suspension i think it would work better with the low chassis. As the CoG of a pull rod system should be slightly lower than push rod. That shoud work well with the lower CoG of the low chassis.
I think the MP4-18 will raise the chassis marginally, not by enough to get more airflow around the sidepods and to the coke bottle and under the floor to the diffuser.
The car will gain about a tenth and a half with this. However they wont raise it so much that they could endanger their great front CoG at the moment. At most it could be around 50-100mm tops.
As for the rest of the car, id reckon a copy of the Red Bull Cross Exhaust will be on the cards as well as a Red Bull DDRS for qualfying in order to gain a little extra time there.
As it is, with the rules being as stable as i have known them from one year to another, id like to think the top teams have about a second to a second and a half to find in their cars before they reach saturation of performance. I think McLaren Red Bull and Ferrari are the 3 teams in this bracket. Lotus, Mercedes and Sauber have about 1.5-2 seconds to reach saturation, Force India, Williams, Toro Rosso have about 2 to 2.5 seconds to find to reach saturation, Caterham and Marussia have about 3 to 3.75 seconds till they reach saturation, HRT has about 4 to 4.5 seconds to find if they make it into 2013.
Most teams will find about 75% to all of the lower figure in the closed season, with mots teams hitting saturation of performance about half way to two thirds the season. Id like to think that the grid will be within about 2 and a half seconds of each other come the start of the season, with the cars at this time next year being within about 1.5 to 2 seconds of one another at Brazil next year.
And by definition, saturation of performance is where a car gets so fast that no matter what you put onto it in terms of performance parts to generate downforce or give the cars pace it will stay as fast as it was with or without that part.
And with one eye on the 2014 regs, i think you could see many teams start developing their 2014 cars as eartly as 5 or 6 GP into 2013 if their car is a lemon. Look at 2008 for what i mean, however they did have in season tests back then.
ESPImperium wrote:a Red Bull DDRS for qualfying in order to gain a little extra time there.
You mean the banned one?
I think the DRS use in qualifying is not permitted next year?
I think no team will spend money in a DRD, because they should use the money for something which is more useful. Maybe they can activate DRS only 2 times on the whole weekend, so why spend money in it?
raymondu999 wrote:it's not - DRS will be limited to the DRS zone in qualifying.
thanks. But this will minimize the benefit of a DRD too
Does not. See that is the problem journalists created with calling the drag reduction device a DDRS. Now alot of people think it is related to DRS, while it isn't. A DRD works by pressure at high speeds. Does not matter if DRS is open or not. It will actually make the benefit of DRD bigger.
ESpImperium probably made the mistake of calling the Red Bull DRD, tested at the YDT, a DDRS.
"The car will gain about a tenth and a half with this. However they wont raise it so much that they could endanger their great front CoG at the moment. At most it could be around 50-100mm tops."
50-100mm is alot!? And where do you get thos thenth and a half from?
I Believe the MP4-28 will look similar to 27 at the front. I guess it will have sort of the same nose. Perhaps a more developed "low chassis but still high nose" concept. Front end pull rods. They will ditch their rectangular sidepod intakes. Their sidepods will be more rounded. Perhaps more like this years sauber. Then i guess they will also adapt the Red Bull tunnel/ramp exhaust. And a new smaller gearbox. Perhaps even a Williams style on.
raymondu999 wrote:it's not - DRS will be limited to the DRS zone in qualifying.
thanks. But this will minimize the benefit of a DRD too
Does not. See that is the problem journalists created with calling the drag reduction device a DDRS. Now alot of people think it is related to DRS, while it isn't. A DRD works by pressure at high speeds. Does not matter if DRS is open or not. It will actually make the benefit of DRD bigger.
ESpImperium probably made the mistake of calling the Red Bull DRD, tested at the YDT, a DDRS.
Agreed. The benefit of DRD will be larger when DRS is only allowed at the DRS zone.
raymondu999 wrote:it's not - DRS will be limited to the DRS zone in qualifying.
thanks. But this will minimize the benefit of a DRD too
Does not. See that is the problem journalists created with calling the drag reduction device a DDRS. Now alot of people think it is related to DRS, while it isn't. A DRD works by pressure at high speeds. Does not matter if DRS is open or not. It will actually make the benefit of DRD bigger.
ESpImperium probably made the mistake of calling the Red Bull DRD, tested at the YDT, a DDRS.
Thats exactly what i thought it was, the Red Bull DRD or what ever its called, im not talking about the Mercedes pipes everywhere version, but the RB one where air goes down the hole in the rear wing and then goes into the central section of the beam wing to reduce drag there.
Holm86 wrote:"The car will gain about a tenth and a half with this. However they wont raise it so much that they could endanger their great front CoG at the moment. At most it could be around 50-100mm tops."
50-100mm is alot!? And where do you get thos thenth and a half from?
I Believe the MP4-28 will look similar to 27 at the front. I guess it will have sort of the same nose. Perhaps a more developed "low chassis but still high nose" concept. Front end pull rods. They will ditch their rectangular sidepod intakes. Their sidepods will be more rounded. Perhaps more like this years sauber. Then i guess they will also adapt the Red Bull tunnel/ramp exhaust. And a new smaller gearbox. Perhaps even a Williams style on.
It was Garry Andersons Guess on the BBC website, im just asuming heights.
