Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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timbo wrote:Yeah, pretty much the same thing was during 2010 season, when for some time Webber had an advantage and then with introduction of advanced engine mapping Seb got the upper hand. It seems he likes planted rear. Interestingly, he is often appraised for his ability to control oversteer. I think, in fact, his style is promoting oversteer, but he needs very stable rear-end to be able to control that.
In my opinion - he likes a "darty" turn in, get the direction change done, if things get hairy - catch it mid-corner, and go hard on the exit. That much I gather. It was always visible even in his earlier years, and even pre-EBD. As a child karting in his backyard his back "yard" was very narrow, and so his dad often had to wet the floor using some water so he could slide his tail around to do a 180. There's a video on it in his Letterman appearance.

There is some proof to that - I remember that the Silverstone 2010 wing (let's not discuss the politics of this please - just the driving) it was said that the wing basically gave the characteristic of an edgier turn-in, and Webber's initial comments on the wing weren't positive while it was positive for Vettel. The same was talked of in 2009 - Mark said that something that hurt Seb in 2010 (in relation to Mark) was the loss of that edgy turn in. In Mark's own words:
The fronts do not bite as extremely and the rears have better lateral stability. Sebastian prefers it the other way around
Perhaps what we are seeing is that Vettel has had to temper his turn-in style slightly as we reach the more aero-dominated formulae such as F1, because the slide could potentially cost him more time than the quicker rotation.

In this respect I don't think that what turned the tables on Mark in 2010 was the mapping itself as was reported at the time, but that Seb was still using his "toned down turn-in" style, and only realised later in the year that because of the EBD - he could return to his corner entry acrobatics.

The EBD IMO fit him like a glove in that respect - he could set the car up with a darty turn-in (off-throttle) and then floor the throttle. The exhaust gases kick in - and the tail suddenly bites, squelching the slide.

In the quote I posted - I gather that he talks of trouble on the entries. Perhaps the early-season RB8 was such an unstable car at the rear that a darty turn in would be very difficult to catch. After 2 years of reverting to acrobatic-style driving, Vettel would have had to "re-learn" and re-acclimatise the toned-down turn-in style.
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Joie de vivre
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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As I stated above, with the exhaust they used in pre-season testing they weren't so competitive as they've wished. Vettel and Webber were equal.

But when Newey redesigned the exhaust to the extend we saw it now and some ddrs in wishbone they've managed to create some extra downforce.

What I was trying to say is Vettel is a driver who preferes some artificial traction control, similiar to Massa. When FIA banned TC Massa had problems, but not Vettel due to EBD and DF (2010 was the strongest RBR car not just IMO but also Vettel's).

2014 will be interesting because they won't be any exhaust or exhaust gases pointed to the diffuser but it will be in center. So RBR specially Vettel will be in disadvantage and I am pretty sure we will see the exact picture as we saw earlier this year.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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I think it's too early to see how 2014 affects anything just yet. The power would probably go peakier thanks to the turbo - add in new tyres, new weight distribution - new aero philosophy and all that jazz - and we don't really know.

Mind you Vettel didn't do too bad in 2008 and 2009 without traction control, and managed to win 2 wet races those years too - which probably would be where the loss of traction control is felt the most.
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Nando
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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What i´ve been hearing is Monza downforce at Monaco.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Difficult to say - but IMO around 20-ish % downforce reduction.
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Jersey Tom
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby wrote:I would be interested to know what everyone thinks the ideal line, braking, apex, acceleration, etc., would be for - for example - a generic, mid-speed, 180 degree corner. You could assume a robot is driving so as not to worry about "styles" as much as what is physically possible/optimum.

From there, an argument could be made that the car/driver/style that best approximates this ideal would have an advantage (for this corner - obviously there are many, many more things going on over a lap/race/season/career.)
Yes, the driver who has the most robotic / perfect reactions and car control will have an advantage in being able to take some idealized but physically possible line on a single lap.
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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bhall
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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I think JT would have him make a seemingly endless series of left turns. :wink:

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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I think what Newby is talking about is basically the optimum line that is humanly possible, that optimises their speed carried/traction/braking/whatever - basically maintaining the highest average speed through that corner (and ideally, the lap).

IMO it's not as clear cut as finding one for every corner - but finding one for every corner, for every car. I don't believe that a Nascar car would have the same ideal line as an F1 car - nor do I believe that the F2012 would have the same ideal line as an MP4-27.
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby wrote:so that we spend the least amount of time at less than full-throttle?
So that we spend the least amount of time at less-than-full throttle, or least amount of time on track? One isn't necessarily the other.
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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So you're saying take as wide an arc as possible - and use all of the tyre traction for lateral acceleration, yes? Sounds good in theory - but unworkable in practice. How do you achieve the step change on entry and exit? You can't just "jump" from 100% braking to 100% lateral to 100% traction.
Adrian Newby wrote:
raymondu999 wrote:
Adrian Newby wrote:so that we spend the least amount of time at less than full-throttle?
So that we spend the least amount of time at less-than-full throttle, or least amount of time on track? One isn't necessarily the other.
I have wrestled with that as well, but I think for this example being one 180 corner, minimum time not at full-throttle would be the best measure.
How do you figure? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't follow your reasoning.
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