Driver styles/preferences

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vall
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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I came across a (physics) book on the subject. Basically, it says that the faster line around the corner is the trajectory with the largest radius. If you look at Lewis' and Vettel's laps, this is exactly what they were doing. Also, Alonso on his Renault years 2003-2005 went even further and he was literally going right over the kerbs. However, if the corner (U-turn) is followed by a long straight, then it is better to take a "V" shaped trajectory, rather then the largest radius one. I think I've seen this in F1Technical tread explained in relation to Lewis' driving style. I think this has to do with the acceleration after the apex.

Nando
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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regarding U-turns, the reason you take a later apex is because you want maximum speed for the straight afterwards.
That´s where you gain/lose all the time.

Mess up the hairpin and you´ll loose time all the way to the next braking zone.
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Jersey Tom
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Adrian Newby wrote:Then they are either unable or unwilling to design/set up their cars to benefit from it.
Oh rest assured, team engineers have a good understanding of how powerful apex speed is with regard to lap time. Anyone who is lost on this concept isn't working in F1, nor in GP2, probably not even in F3. There's only so much you can do to get it though. At the end of the day, downforce is a pretty big trump card there. Certainly not all teams have the same level of aero development. Sometimes you're stuck with what you have, and that's that.

In any event, "trail powering" or whatever you want to call it will tend to be the fastest (and most consistent) way around a generic traction-limited corner, for the same reason trail braking is. Also, constant radius cornering does not work with either concept.

In this series, at max braking point you are "dead center" on the performance envelope of the car in that you are using maximum longitudinal with zero lateral. At this point your turn radius is infinite (or curvature = 0). If your driver is good enough to stay on the edge of the performance envelope, at some point mid entry you'll be using partial braking and partial cornering - the radius tightens. At apex you are at max lateral with zero longitudinal - the radius is at its smallest value. Then you have the reverse sequence of events from apex to straightaway with the turn radius gradually getting bigger until it's a straight line again.

Can't really think of many circumstances where you can go from 0 to 100% throttle in a step input on corner exit. Might ramp pretty quickly between the two, but just mashing the throttle on a 750+ hp RWD car... you're either (a) going to inevitably do it a hair too soon and spin out, or (b) have to wait so long and unwind so much steering that you're losing time to a driver who has been easing into the throttle since the apex.
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Jersey Tom
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby wrote:So, you believe a constant radius path won't allow trail-braking, but a decreasing radius path will?
Correct. Not even an opinion thing here for you to agree or disagree with, this is just math. Construct a "friction ellipse" of arbitrary dimension, and navigate from max braking along the performance limit arc through max cornering and then to max forward acceleration. You start at Ay = 0, then proceed to Ay = Max, then back to Ay = 0. V^2/r = a, ergo as Ay goes from 0 to Max, radius goes from max to minimum. So yes, by trail braking you are inherently forced to progressively tighten cornering radius to the apex, then unwind on exit from minimum radius back to infinite (straight line).
"Trail-powering" is just ridiculous. Why would you half-ass accelerate early/er? To run out of exit room faster? Wouldn't it be far better to hold a tighter radius a moment longer and then go to full-throttle while increasing your radius? Yep.
Sure, it would be nice to be at the tightest radius and be able to simultaneously go to wide open throttle, and then start to decrease corner radius. But that's physically impossible. If you're already at maximum lateral capacity at tightest radius - that's all the tires can do. They can't support wide open throttle at that point. There's a time and a place once some lateral demand has been released (by going to a larger radius) where the tires can support full engine torque.. but if you're not gradually applying throttle to that point you're throwing away lap time.

I suppose you could get more toward that by adding an outrageous amount of understeer to the car - but in doing so you're throwing away cornering speed in general.
you accelerate smoothly and as quickly as the rears can take it.
Is this not the "trail power" we are discussing? You start from neutral throttle and ramp into it as you travel along the outer edge of the performance envelope of the car.

Really the best way to get an understanding of all of this is to draw it out / do the math / write a simple vehicle sim / whatever. Little easier to wrap one's head around visually sometimes rather than just hand waving.

Hope that helps.
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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In trail braking, you decrease brake pressure while increasing steering lock. During this brake decrease and lock increase, your radius will decrease. Think of the exit as the same thing in reverse, decreasing lock and adding throttle. You would never trail brake in a constant radius, because holding radius while braking (thus decreasing your speed) means you're just slowing down and using less than maximum lateral grip. After all you entered that radius at a high speed - why go slower in the middle? Unless you messed up your line, that is.

If you had a hairpin, there would be an angle, x degrees, which would allow you a constant radius, that would allow you to use up all the road on entry and on exit, and hit the apex, in one sweeping constant radius arc. You could even draw that arc on paper if you had a track map, with a compass.

Naturally, because in trailing the entries and exits you are entering the corner at less than x degrees of lock, and exiting at the very end at less than x degrees of lock, geometrically speaking, if you trail the entries and exits, at the apex itself you would hold more lock to compensate, and hold slightly less apex speed. If you were to look at it from above, the line would look like you took the straighter entry line of an early apex, with the straighter exit line of a late apex, sacrificing raw apex speed to do it.

Most F1 drivers tend to trail brake right up to the apex. Look for onboards with telemetry.

Take a look at Webber in Brazil:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHgoij63Ae0[/youtube]
In the more prominent braking zones, such as Turn 1 and 4; and when Mark was very clearly trail braking; the G-meter reads constant the whole way; basically having the same net acceleration, just that it shifts in direction from the car's longitudinal axis, onto the lateral, by decreasing the braking in harmony with increasing the steering.

EDIT: Saw that FOM has taken the video down. Here's the best I could find so far:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_BUIEhvmPg[/youtube]

Same thing - look at turns such as Turn 1. The acceleration (measured in G) is pretty much static throughout the corner, allowing for having less downforce as the car slows, but look at how they basically are shifting the red dot clockwise or counterclockwise on at a constant distance to the center of the accelerometer.
Last edited by raymondu999 on 28 Nov 2012, 06:34, edited 1 time in total.
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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AN you might wanna read this thread here, started when *I* wasn't too familiar with trail braking: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1&t=11603
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Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Jersey Tom
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Adrian Newby wrote:If you are braking, and tightening your radius all the way to the apex of a 180 degree corner you are going to be vey slow indeed.
I see. Well, you may want to get in touch with Vettel, Schumacher, Alonso, etc. etc. and correct their errors then... as this is the approach used pretty well exclusively by any road racing driver. I maintain that trying to trail-brake while on a constant radius trajectory is either (a) impossible while keeping good apex speed as it exceeds the performance envelope the tires allow, or (b) painfully slow. I'd say that only in wide / sweeping corners will you find a driver holding a constant radius for very long. Otherwise it is very brief.

But hey, don't take my word for it. As I said, these effects can be seen by writing a simple simulation and trying different trajectories, etc. Additionally, you can generally pick this out of data acquisition if you have either a driver in a real car or even a good sim racer. Applies just as much in both cases.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

Adrian Newby
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Adrian Newby
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Adrian Newby
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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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It's hard to grasp at first as people don't realise that you decrease brake as you increase steering.

IMO where you're getting crossed up with JT (whose word I'd take on this topic any day of the week -- btw JT, Ciro said hi) is that JT, to my read, is saying you decrease radius (tighten the steering) up to the apex as you trail the braking right up to the apex, then you unwind and increase the radius from apex to exit as you power out.
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