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No i would not trail brake. Can´t see the point, just downshift, let the car roll into the apex and then get on the gas.
Trailbrake i would use in chicanes or hairpins or Suzuka T1 where you are essentially forced to brake and turn at the same time.
For something inbetween what we have discussed i would say geometrical apex, i don´t think you will be able to gain anything from a high speed 180 by nerfing your entry because while you spend time doing that the other guy will be on the power already.
Brake in a straight line, turn in, let it ride to the apex with maximum lateral grip and let the car slow itself down until you hit the geometrical apex then away you go.
Get on the gas on the apex, feed in the power (how hard depends on your downforce levels)
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!
"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."
You'd always have to put some brake or accelerator on - otherwise you're just not using the capability of your tyres. Remember that the steering itself is scrubbing speed off - and so even if you were intending to hold constant radius for an instant, you'd want to balance the scrub with some power.
Nando - letting a car roll (without any brake or throttle) into an apex is quite slow.
No that´s not true. I use 100% of the tires for cornering. Remember this is a high speed corner.
100% of the tires (not really 100% as it needs to be a transition phase) for braking
100% for turn-in
then a dynamic percentage as you are feeding in more power and getting out of the corner = less of the tire needs to be used for cornering.
Basically if you trailbrake in such a high speed corner you will decrease your radius so you have to compensate with steering lock to not go off the track on the inside.
So when you start compensating for that by giving less steering input you are telling the car to go left but your tires are pointed a few degrees more to the right and you are on the brakes so there´s a real big chance the rear end will come around.
If you need to trailbrake in such a high speed corner you haven´t entered the corner fast enough.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!
"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."
raymondu999 wrote:Nando - letting a car roll (without any brake or throttle) into an apex is quite slow.
Obviously you do not go from 100% brake to 0% brake but you don´t trail brake in high speed corners, there´s no purpose for it.
(for these high speed 180´s)
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!
"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."
You can't trail-brake a constant radius corner path. If you go straight -> constant radius -> straight you'd have to do all your braking in a straight line, then be completely off brakes and do all your cornering by itself, then wait and only get back to throttle when you're straight again. The driver's G-G diagram would look like a "+" rather than anything round or elliptical.
Ultimately, cornering on a constant radius path (e.g. a skidpad) with the tires at their limit, you're on the outer edge of your performance envelope with zero extra "grip" available for braking or accelerating - it is being 100% used for cornering. It's unavoidable that if you want to be able to brake or accelerate at any part of a corner you cannot be at max lateral, and as a result the driver path radius has to be tightening on entry up to the apex (which I would deem as the point of minimum path radius), and then opening up gradually on exit.
Whether or not your driver apex is at, before, or after the halfway point of the corner doesn't change any of the above. I'd love to provide a more visual example but I believe that's covered even in one or several of the Carroll Smith books.
In my experience, this is pretty well accepted and proven out at all levels of racing, for any generic traction-limited corner (i.e. mid or low speed). Obviously something like a high speed sweeper is an exception where you may be flat out through the whole corner or at part throttle at worst with not ever really touching the brakes.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.
raymondu999 wrote:Nando - letting a car roll (without any brake or throttle) into an apex is quite slow.
Obviously you do not go from 100% brake to 0% brake but you don´t trail brake in high speed corners, there´s no purpose for it.
(for these high speed 180´s)
I didn't mention trail braking at all. My point is - either you'll be slowing down - in which case you'd probably be trailing the brakes, OR you'd be holding a constant speed through the high speed corner, in which case you would need some throttle to counter tyre scrub, or you'd be accelerating, in which case you'd be on the throttle. If you "roll" into the apex - that's slow.
raymondu999 wrote:Nando - letting a car roll (without any brake or throttle) into an apex is quite slow.
Obviously you do not go from 100% brake to 0% brake but you don´t trail brake in high speed corners, there´s no purpose for it.
(for these high speed 180´s)
I didn't mention trail braking at all. My point is - either you'll be slowing down - in which case you'd probably be trailing the brakes, OR you'd be holding a constant speed through the high speed corner, in which case you would need some throttle to counter tyre scrub, or you'd be accelerating, in which case you'd be on the throttle. If you "roll" into the apex - that's slow.
No you can´t hold a constant speed without using the throttle. Car will slow down because there´s no energy keeping it going and the fact that you are turning which slows the car down as well.
You don´t apex at the speed you enter the corner at.
"Il Phenomeno" - The one they fear the most!
"2% of the world's population own 50% of the world's wealth."
Nando wrote:you can´t hold a constant speed without using the throttle. Car will slow down because there´s no energy keeping it going and the fact that you are turning which slows the car down as well.
Yeesh. It's so hard to talk to you sometimes. THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING!!!!
