About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

[Nando]

To be fair - we haven't really seen it in RBR yet - I don't think we can say that we'll see a situation in RBR of "when the going gets tough, the tough get going"

No i agree, we haven´t seen any sign of it yet, well perhaps a little bit in the beginning of the season but it was just a speed bump.
However, nobody reigns supreme for ever.

Have to say i quite like Red Bull and what they have done for sports in general.
And i´m sure Red Bull likes what sport has done for them

[Raptor22]

With a 600 million budget....anything is possible.

Zuverlässige Daten über die Finanzen der Rennställe liefert nur das britische «Companies House», eine Handelskammer, bei der die in England ansässigen Teams die Bilanzen vorlegen müssen. 2011 sind dort die Umsätze der Firmen Red Bull Racing und Red Bull Technology gestiegen, auf zusammen 585 Millionen Franken. Die Grenzen der Unternehmen sind fliessend, der reine Renn-Etat wird mit 250 Millionen Franken angegeben, das sind gut 70 Millionen mehr als bei Mercedes und fast das Doppelte des Williams-Teams. Horners Gehalt als Direktor beider Unternehmen wird auf drei Millionen taxiert, das Durchschnittsgehalt der Formel-1-Mitarbeiter liegt bei etwa 130 000 Franken.

Reliable data on the finances of the racing stables supplies only the British "Companies House", a chamber of commerce in which the UK-based teams must submit their budgets. 2011 where the turnover of the company Red Bull Racing and Red Bull Technology has risen to 585 million francs [US $630 million] together. The boundaries of the company are fluid, the pure racing budget is given as 250 million francs [US $268.9 million], which is about 70 million [US $75.3 million] more than at Mercedes and almost double the Williams team. Horner's salary as director of both companies is estimated at three million, the average salary of the Formula-1-employees is about 130 000 francs.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1#p398465

Ferrari, Mercedes and McLAren have automotive arms to hide some of their expenditure. They're not shoestring operations compared to Red Bull you know

[raymondu999]

With a 600 million budget....anything is possible.

Tell that to Toyota

[FoxHound]

Toyota dreamt of having 600million plus each year to burn. 440 million was their peak....And they also had to design and build their own engines. So the team budget was closer 300 million, half of what Red bull are going through at present.

No team in the history of F1 has ever had such a big budget.

[FoxHound]

Ferrari, Mercedes and McLAren have automotive arms to hide some of their expenditure. They're not shoestring operations compared to Red Bull you know

But if you actually read the story Red Bull's listed racing budget is published as 250 million. Mercedes is listed as 180 million, thats the racing budget.
With Engines you are looking at a further 100 million for Mercedes....and FREE for Red Bull.

Meaning Mercedes total spend on chassis and aero, is 180 million. Red Bull with Red Bull technology is 600million, as RB tech supply the Red Bull racing team.

Furthermore, Mercedes have a duty to shareholders to list expense. As Do Ferrari. Where can you point me, have Mercedes or Ferrari got a 3rd party entity such as Red Bull technologies with a budget of around 350 million that is based solely to provide for the GP team?

[bhall]

The part I like most, aside from the positively mammoth sum of money we're talking about, is where Red Bull Technology exists within the scope of FIA regulations. Specifically, it doesn't. That means this...

Track testing shall be considered any track running time not part of an Event undertaken by a competitor entered in the Championship, using cars which conform substantially with the current Formula One Technical Regulations in addition to those from the previous or subsequent year, with the exception of promotional events carried out using tyres provided specifically for this purpose by the appointed supplier.

...doesn't mean a thing in the world when juxtaposed against Christian Horner's self-described definition of Red Bull Technology's role.

"...we’ve complied fully with the RRA within Red Bull Racing, which is the entrant to the Formula 1 World Championship. Red Bull Technology is a supplier to Red Bull Racing…"

Now, this is not at all to say I think Red Bull Technology has undertaken full-scale track testing from which "proper" teams are barred - though, I won't shut the door on that, or any other, possibility. What it really means to me is that Red Bull Technology has no wind tunnel restrictions whatsoever, which are also defined in Section 22 in the Sporting Regulations. They can run a 100% scale wind tunnel 24 hours a day, 365 days a year at whatever wind speed they choose, while other teams are limited to 60% scale tunnels at 50 meters/second and are subjected to usage restrictions, including a mandatory two-week shutdown during the summer.

That's the bang you get for 630,000,000 bucks.

(Disclaimer: I offer a tip of my cap if this is so. Rules are rules are rules. They're the same for everyone, and it appears they've done a masterful job bending them like a front wing.)

[FoxHound]

Nice spot Ben, and an exquisite post. Caviar to my Cod.

Schumacher made mention of it in an interview, in Oz 2011. I'll try find the video.
But the crux of the matter is that red bulls spend for performance enhancement within f1 far exceeds that of any other team by 100s of millions of pounds.

[Raptor22]

Part of Ferrari and Mercedes team over heads can be buried in factory overheads.
Need rims, water pumps heck even raw Materials just make sure the parent orders those.
Red bull have simply found a way to level the playing field.

[CHT]

Ferrari, Mercedes and McLAren have automotive arms to hide some of their expenditure. They're not shoestring operations compared to Red Bull you know

But if you actually read the story Red Bull's listed racing budget is published as 250 million. Mercedes is listed as 180 million, thats the racing budget.
With Engines you are looking at a further 100 million for Mercedes....and FREE for Red Bull.

Meaning Mercedes total spend on chassis and aero, is 180 million. Red Bull with Red Bull technology is 600million, as RB tech supply the Red Bull racing team.

Furthermore, Mercedes have a duty to shareholders to list expense. As Do Ferrari. Where can you point me, have Mercedes or Ferrari got a 3rd party entity such as Red Bull technologies with a budget of around 350 million that is based solely to provide for the GP team?

no companies in the history of mankind have ever spend 600m on marketing budget a year. honestly why would any company want to waste time in F1 if they need to spend 600m. And btw, when you say racing budget, did you include all other motor racing series which RB is involved?

[Nando]

Well they made 4.5 billion dollars last year. 600 million of that equates to a little over 13% if my calculations are right.
(not really good with math)

[CHT]

Well they made 4.5 billion dollars last year. 600 million of that equates to a little over 13% if my calculations are right.
(not really good with math)

turn over is not = profit.

[FoxHound]

Part of Ferrari and Mercedes team over heads can be buried in factory overheads.

But it's not really viable to switch road production to a highly specialised field like F1. The demands are different, the tolerances are different, the tools can be different and the staff will certainly need to be different.
The notion that Ferrari or Mercedes have a department that builds 458s or SLS AMGs 1 day then switches it's attention to the W03 or F2012 is so fanciful, I can't even believe it's being put forward.

You need a standalone section, with it's own management and it's own building and it's own (mammoth) budget.
Ferrari or Mercedes cannot hide this, and Red bull would certainly know about it had they tried.
The only help either would get from the factory would be peripheral. Meaning that if the team struggles with a particular issue such as tyres in Mercedes case, they can use a simulator at daimler to reference their own results.
This has happened, and is not so unheard of even for smaller teams to use other organisations simulators.

But when you are talking of a supplier like Red Bull technology, the kind of assistance Red Bull get from them is so evident that it bears no comparison to the peripheral help the manufacturers are able to give to F1 teams.
F1 is a specialist sport, with specilaist requirements you don't just drop into Helmut in Stuttgart or Giuseppe in Maranello and say "think you can help with this?"

no companies in the history of mankind have ever spend 600m on marketing budget a year. honestly why would any company want to waste time in F1 if they need to spend 600m. And btw, when you say racing budget, did you include all other motor racing series which RB is involved?

F1 operations

[CHT]

Part of Ferrari and Mercedes team over heads can be buried in factory overheads.

But it's not really viable to switch road production to a highly specialised field like F1. The demands are different, the tolerances are different, the tools can be different and the staff will certainly need to be different.
The notion that Ferrari or Mercedes have a department that builds 458s or SLS AMGs 1 day then switches it's attention to the W03 or F2012 is so fanciful, I can't even believe it's being put forward.

You need a standalone section, with it's own management and it's own building and it's own (mammoth) budget.
Ferrari or Mercedes cannot hide this, and Red bull would certainly know about it had they tried.
The only help either would get from the factory would be peripheral. Meaning that if the team struggles with a particular issue such as tyres in Mercedes case, they can use a simulator at daimler to reference their own results.
This has happened, and is not so unheard of even for smaller teams to use other organisations simulators.

But when you are talking of a supplier like Red Bull technology, the kind of assistance Red Bull get from them is so evident that it bears no comparison to the peripheral help the manufacturers are able to give to F1 teams.
F1 is a specialist sport, with specilaist requirements you don't just drop into Helmut in Stuttgart or Giuseppe in Maranello and say "think you can help with this?"

no companies in the history of mankind have ever spend 600m on marketing budget a year. honestly why would any company want to waste time in F1 if they need to spend 600m. And btw, when you say racing budget, did you include all other motor racing series which RB is involved?

F1 operations

You can claim its 1 billion too if your intention is to discredit RBR achievement in f1 however i do think that you should prove that you have got your facts right.

[FoxHound]

@CHT

I have already posted it. But for your own personal benefit I will post it again.

Zuverlässige Daten über die Finanzen der Rennställe liefert nur das britische «Companies House», eine Handelskammer, bei der die in England ansässigen Teams die Bilanzen vorlegen müssen. 2011 sind dort die Umsätze der Firmen Red Bull Racing und Red Bull Technology gestiegen, auf zusammen 585 Millionen Franken. Die Grenzen der Unternehmen sind fliessend, der reine Renn-Etat wird mit 250 Millionen Franken angegeben, das sind gut 70 Millionen mehr als bei Mercedes und fast das Doppelte des Williams-Teams. Horners Gehalt als Direktor beider Unternehmen wird auf drei Millionen taxiert, das Durchschnittsgehalt der Formel-1-Mitarbeiter liegt bei etwa 130 000 Franken.

Reliable data on the finances of the racing stables supplies only the British "Companies House", a chamber of commerce in which the UK-based teams must submit their budgets. 2011 where the turnover of the company Red Bull Racing and Red Bull Technology has risen to 585 million francs [US $630 million] together. The boundaries of the company are fluid, the pure racing budget is given as 250 million francs [US $268.9 million], which is about 70 million [US $75.3 million] more than at Mercedes and almost double the Williams team. Horner's salary as director of both companies is estimated at three million, the average salary of the Formula-1-employees is about 130 000 francs.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1#p398465

[CHT]

@CHT

I have already posted it. But for your own personal benefit I will post it again.

Zuverlässige Daten über die Finanzen der Rennställe liefert nur das britische «Companies House», eine Handelskammer, bei der die in England ansässigen Teams die Bilanzen vorlegen müssen. 2011 sind dort die Umsätze der Firmen Red Bull Racing und Red Bull Technology gestiegen, auf zusammen 585 Millionen Franken. Die Grenzen der Unternehmen sind fliessend, der reine Renn-Etat wird mit 250 Millionen Franken angegeben, das sind gut 70 Millionen mehr als bei Mercedes und fast das Doppelte des Williams-Teams. Horners Gehalt als Direktor beider Unternehmen wird auf drei Millionen taxiert, das Durchschnittsgehalt der Formel-1-Mitarbeiter liegt bei etwa 130 000 Franken.

Reliable data on the finances of the racing stables supplies only the British "Companies House", a chamber of commerce in which the UK-based teams must submit their budgets. 2011 where the turnover of the company Red Bull Racing and Red Bull Technology has risen to 585 million francs [US $630 million] together. The boundaries of the company are fluid, the pure racing budget is given as 250 million francs [US $268.9 million], which is about 70 million [US $75.3 million] more than at Mercedes and almost double the Williams team. Horner's salary as director of both companies is estimated at three million, the average salary of the Formula-1-employees is about 130 000 francs.

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =1#p398465

There is nothing in there that tell us that RBR has a f1 budget on 600m. Reliable source. That only if you don't question what you read.