About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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WhiteBlue wrote:
FoxHound wrote:@WB
Please can you show me where there is appetite at Mercedes, Renault or Ferrari to get embroiled in a war of financial attrition?
Renault is on its knees, French government cash keeps it up and running.
Ferrari cannot spend 500million a year, and have never done so...
Nobody is talking about 500m but 450 is a historic figure that has been reached by Ferrari and can easily be reached again. Ferrari have much greater revenues and profits than they did six years ago and they can easily up the ante when and if Red Bull want to play Monopoly. I believe that both rivals should not go that way. As you quite rightly say teams like Mercedes, Lotus and McLaren will probably not have the means to compete on that level. It would not be good to have an eternal competition between just two proponents with every body else at the side lines watching.
Ferrari doesn't spend any money on marketing outside f1.

bhall
bhall
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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Neue Zürcher Zeitung is the Swiss newspaper of record. The Companies House is an agency of Her Majesty's Government. Christian Horner has openly called Red Bull Technology a "supplier" for Red Bull Racing.

Anything else? ;)

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FoxHound
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Joined: 23 Aug 2012, 16:50

Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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I question what I read, I question what I see too.

The information is here for you: For the price of a single £.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/18942 ... order?ft=1

That is Companies house my old mucker.

Here is a little about companies house you really should know:
Companies House is the United Kingdom Registrar of Companies and is an Executive Agency of Her Majesty's Government, under the remit of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS). All forms of companies (as permitted by the United Kingdom Companies Act) are incorporated and registered with Companies House and file specific details as required by the current Companies Act 2006. All registered limited companies, including subsidiary, small and inactive companies, must file annual financial statements in addition to annual company returns, which are all public records. Only some registered unlimited companies (meeting certain conditions) are exempt from this requirement.
The United Kingdom has had a system of company registration since 1844. The legislation governing company registration matters is the Companies Act 2006.
JET set

CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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bhallg2k wrote:Neue Zürcher Zeitung is the Swiss newspaper of record. The Companies House is an agency of Her Majesty's Government. Christian Horner has openly called Red Bull Technology a "supplier" for Red Bull Racing.

Anything else? ;)
Common sense tells me that it is impossible for any company generate 600m of revenue through f1 other than Bernie

CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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FoxHound wrote:I question what I read, I question what I see too.

The information is here for you: For the price of a single £.

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/18942 ... order?ft=1

That is Companies house my old mucker.

Here is a little about companies house you really should know:
Companies House is the United Kingdom Registrar of Companies and is an Executive Agency of Her Majesty's Government, under the remit of the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS). All forms of companies (as permitted by the United Kingdom Companies Act) are incorporated and registered with Companies House and file specific details as required by the current Companies Act 2006. All registered limited companies, including subsidiary, small and inactive companies, must file annual financial statements in addition to annual company returns, which are all public records. Only some registered unlimited companies (meeting certain conditions) are exempt from this requirement.
The United Kingdom has had a system of company registration since 1844. The legislation governing company registration matters is the Companies Act 2006.
May I know what does RBR racing and red bull technology sell to generate 600m of revenue.

bhall
bhall
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Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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Everyone's common sense lets them down from time to time. Lord knows it happens to me. (Ask all my ex-girlfriends.)

Red Bull Racing isn't generating $630,000,000 through F1. Its spending $630,000,000 on F1, money it receives from Red Bull, the FOM prize fund, and sponsorships.

CHT
CHT
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Joined: 14 Apr 2008, 05:24

Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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bhallg2k wrote:Everyone's common sense lets them down from time to time. Lord knows it happens to me. (Ask all my ex-girlfriends.)

Red Bull Racing isn't generating $630,000,000 through F1. Its spending $630,000,000 it receives from Red Bull, FOM prize money, and sponsorships.
Have you done your math on the figure? Red bull is by itself the main sponsor of all their motor racing and extreme sports interest. F1 prize money for wcc is 87m per year. So who is paying for the 500m budget.

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WhiteBlue
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Location: WhiteBlue Country

Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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CHT wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote:Nobody is talking about 500m but 450 is a historic figure that has been reached by Ferrari and can easily be reached again. Ferrari have much greater revenues and profits than they did six years ago and they can easily up the ante when and if Red Bull want to play Monopoly. I believe that both rivals should not go that way. As you quite rightly say teams like Mercedes, Lotus and McLaren will probably not have the means to compete on that level. It would not be good to have an eternal competition between just two proponents with every body else at the side lines watching.
Ferrari doesn't spend any money on marketing outside f1.
So what? Both Ferrari and Red Bull derive hundreds of millions of dollars in Advertising Value Equivalence (AVE) from F1. The total AVE is estimated well over $1.5bn. Red bull will catch between 15-25% of that. Ferrari must be hot on their heels. Their TV impact is estimated significantly lower than Red Bull's but they dominate the print media. AVE is the real reason why both firms are in F1. It almost completely repays their expenditure by advertising their brands on international television and the news markets. A budget cap will not undermine that strategy. It will just make them earn more money to keep if they are capable to compete with teams that can operate at identical budgets. Wether they could keep their top role at lower expenditure is something we would have to see. The impression is that they would rather not like to try it.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

CHT
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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RBR is worth 400m and they are supposed to spend 500m to be worth 400m? That's like selling a dollar for 80 cents

http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/ ... able-team/
Last edited by CHT on 30 Nov 2012, 19:22, edited 1 time in total.

CHT
CHT
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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Redbull did spend 600m, but that's over 5 years.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-0 ... rrari.html

bhall
bhall
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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Red Bull Racing got $93.1 million in FOM prize money and $67 million from sponsors (thanks for the Forbe's link). That leaves ~$470 million, a figure that doesn't seem outlandish for Red Bull GmbH to pick up, especially when one considers that it likely also went toward STR expenditures and includes STR sponsorship and prize money, a facet of this thing I failed to consider until now.

At any rate, if you go back to my first post here on the subject, you'll see I'm not trying to denigrate the team. No matter what they've done and no matter how much was spent, it's all perfectly legal within the rules as they're currently written. That's F1.

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FoxHound
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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Squadra Torro Rosso is a seperate entity and not included in the RBR or RBT companies house figures.
They're based in Italy, no need for companies house disclosure.
JET set

CHT
CHT
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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bhallg2k wrote:Red Bull Racing got $93.1 million in FOM prize money and $67 million from sponsors (thanks for the Forbe's link). That leaves ~$470 million, a figure that doesn't seem outlandish for Red Bull GmbH to pick up, especially when one considers that it likely also went toward STR expenditures and includes STR sponsorship and prize money, a facet of this thing I failed to consider until now.

At any rate, if you go back to my first post here on the subject, you'll see I'm not trying to denigrate the team. No matter what they've done and no matter how much was spent, it's all perfectly legal within the rules as they're currently written. That's F1.
Daimler AG profit per year is more than Redbull annual turnover, and I dont see anyone speculating that they are spending $1 or 2b a year in F1. perhaps their lack of success make them less vulnerable to smearing?

Honestly, how can a F1 team justify themselves to spend $600m a year when their highest paid employee Vettel salary is not even close to what Alonso or Lewis is getting, their team of 550 strength is no larger than Ferrari or Mclaren and their facilities at Milton Keynes is no where as grand and massive as Ferrari or Mclaren.

$470m is not a small amount to even the biggest fortune 500 companies and this doesnt even include RB involvement in other sponsorships and marketing campaign.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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CHT wrote:RBR is worth 400m and they are supposed to spend 500m to be worth 400m? That's like selling a dollar for 80 cents
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/ ... able-team/
People are jumping to undue conclusions by a lack of proper analysis of such financial data. There are several things that have to be considered when we read about budgets, revenues, team valuation, sponsorship, advertising value equivalence and the like.
1. When you look at company house figures as the Züricher Zeitung did you have to consolidate the figure and not simply add them up, because RBR and RBT had internal sales that have to be consolidated. You also have to basically add all figure for RBR and STR if you want to make them comparable to Ferrari. At least that is what is often done in some of the reports on brand value.
2. Budget must not be mixed up with revenues. Revenues mainly come from FOM pay out and sponsorship. Revenues will split into budgets and potentially profits. Revenues and profits are driving the valuation of teams and brands.
3. Advertising value equivalence are non cash revenues and generate an option to avoid other costly advertising expenditure for your product. It is significant when you are the title sponsor of one or more teams like Ferrari and Red Bull. AVE in F1 is $1.5-2bn. A team brand can forgo sponsorship revenue and go for maximizing AVE as Red Bull does with both F1 teams. They almost completely use their four cars and two teams to advertise Red Bull. If you consider the Red Bull strategy strange to maximise the AVE you only need to look at global sales of the two brands to find the explanation. Ferrari had global sales of $1.5bn and Red Bull had $5.25bn. It means that every advertising dollar Red Bull spends is likely to generate 3.5 times as much additional sales as it would do for Ferrari. It is simple to do the math who is going to do more advertising or better convert more revenues to AVR.
Having said all that one can put together some comparative data for Red Bull and Ferrari. Red Bull in those figures always stands for two teams cumulatively:

-------------Team Value----------Budget---------------Revenues----------AVE---------------Profit--------AVE+REV-----Profit+AVE
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________
Red Bull....$535(400+135)m...$195(125+70)m.....$185(160+25)m...$360m(24%).....-$10m.......$545m.......$535
Ferrari......$1,150m............$125m................$384m.............$90m(6%).........$259m......$474m.......$349

What we see is that Ferrari is by a wide margin the group with the highest income. They do not spend money on F1 they profit to the tune of $259m or $349 if you include AVE.
Red Bull have a negative profit of -$10m because they forgo much sponsorship potential in favour of generating AVE. When you look at combined profit including AVE Red Bull is pushing very strong with $535m.
These figures explain why Red Bull are currently generating Team value much faster than Ferrari. Ferrari took many years to build up the huge team value. Red Bull are still playing catch up but they are doing it very smartly.

If one speculates how both teams will operate under a budget race one only has to look at the huge reserves of revenues of Ferrari and the huge AVE of Red Bull to conclude that they can easily double their budget if they want to.

Sources:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/chrissmith/ ... able-team/
http://asia.eurosport.com/formula-1/bus ... tory.shtml
http://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=& ... GwopCtYf0Q
http://www.nzz.ch/nzzas/nzz-am-sonntag/ ... 1.17757702
Last edited by WhiteBlue on 30 Nov 2012, 21:17, edited 1 time in total.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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FoxHound
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Re: Red Bull Racing 2012

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@ CHT

If you where talking about red bull racing then yes, they observe the resource restriction.
The bone of contention is red bull technologies and the role it plays outside of this.

A 350 million dollar bone of contention.

Daimler couldn't spend that if it wanted to. WB will be familiar with that, I'm hoping.
JET set