About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

[WhiteBlue]

A 350 million dollar bone of contention.
Daimler couldn't spend that if it wanted to. WB will be familiar with that, I'm hoping.

I think it is highly speculative and plain wrong to speak about $350m in connection with the RRA. Regarding the capabilities of Daimler it is quite clear that they are nowhere compared to Red Bull or Ferrari, or even McLaren in terms of revenues and budget capabilities.

[CHT]

@ CHT

If you where talking about red bull racing then yes, they observe the resource restriction.
The bone of contention is red bull technologies and the role it plays outside of this.

A 350 million dollar bone of contention.

Daimler couldn't spend that if it wanted to. WB will be familiar with that, I'm hoping.

Not sure how reliable in this info. I am assuming Redbull Racing is nothing but a racing team that is 100% dependent on Redbull technology to provide the car and technological development.

https://www.duedil.com/company/05202976 ... financials

[bhall]

People are jumping...

What I see there is increasingly convoluted logic that doesn't even attempt to address the issue. I couldn't possibly care less about team income from sponsorships, prize funds, supply contracts, or even loose change found in the couch. This has never been about the viability of a team's expenditures or even the reason for teams making them in the first place; it's about the expenditures themselves.

Red Bull Technology has one job and one job only: to "supply" Red Bull Racing in such a way as to avoid RRA penalties. (FoxJet was entirely correct to point out my improper inclusion of STR in this discussion. I claim brain fart.) The internal shifting of money within Red Bull Technology/Racing means jack --- to me, because it all winds up in the same place in huge sums.

Bearing in mind that this whole thing started as an abstract discussion on budget caps in another thread, this is all just a demonstration of how aggressively teams exploit loopholes. That's it.

One could talk about Red Bull Technology and wind tunnels in this thread, though. That ought to be a doozy.

[Raptor22]

Fact is Ferrari and Mercedes can still hide some of their expenditure by using their production environments as "Suppliers" to the F1 teams.
All Red Bull have done is use the rules to their advantage to make up a built in regulatory disadvantage. The fact this is even being raised is just once again sour grapes. Its the third WDC and the third time the same people bring up the same topic.

[FoxHound]

Fact is Ferrari and Mercedes can still hide some of their expenditure by using their production environments as "Suppliers" to the F1 teams.

That's like comparing apples with pairs. What Ferrari Spa or Daimler AG can provide for their teams is like cheap grape juice to the Romanee-Conti Grand Cru wine that Red bull technology provide Red Bull Racing.
Comparing the 2 is as much a waste of time as it is stupid, for the exhaustive reasons that neither Mercedes nor Ferrari can hide 350 million spend on F1 projects ON TOP of what they already do.

All Red Bull have done is use the rules to their advantage to make up a built in regulatory disadvantage

Yes, they have made a mockery of the RRA and the intentions of the RRA....despite having signed up to it in 2009.

[gato azul]

Squadra Torro Rosso is a seperate entity and not included in the RBR or RBT companies house figures.
They're based in Italy, no need for companies house disclosure.

You don't think that revenues (sales, turnover, Umsatz) for parts & services supplied to Torro Rosso (and Caterham) would
have to show up in RBT's filings to the companies house?
That sounds not very likely to me, may you explain what your understanding of revenue ( Umsatz in the NZZ article) is, and how
you conclude that it equals expenditure.

EDIT: the original term in the translation used was "turnover", not revenue - apologize

[Raptor22]

JET, are you suggesting that a production facility cannot order wheel rims, brakes pads, carbon fibre material, resin, paint, nuts bolts, that orders for machined components cannot be placed on outside vendors using the factory accounts? I would like to live in your dream world.

[gato azul]

F1 is a specialist sport, with specilaist requirements you don't just drop into Helmut in Stuttgart or Giuseppe in Maranello and say "think you can help with this?"

maybe not Helmut, but what about Hans-Peter?

........
Alle zwei Wochen trifft sich Hans-Peter Kollmeier, 43, mit den englischen Partnern. Er koordiniert die rennsportlichen Experten bei Mercedes. Zugleich ist Kollmeier die zentrale Anlaufstelle für alle Fragen, die womöglich von einem aus dem Heer der Daimler-Benz-Ingenieure beantwortet werden können.
........
Derzeit entwickelt das Werk neue Oberflächenbeschichtungen für die Zahnräder der in Woking gefertigten Getriebe. In der Forschungsabteilung kümmern sich Spezialisten um faserverstärkte Kunststoffe, die Designer Newey bei der Chassis-Produktion verwenden könnte, sogar Daimlers Luftfahrttochter Dasa wird in Materialfragen konsultiert.

I think, you massively underestimate the possibilities and the know how of the OEM's and their suppliers.
Does not even need to be "in-house", their are many external service suppliers like Bertrand, BTZ and others,
who work on both sides (road car & motorsport) for the OEM's (Manufacturers)
see as example

It's not as straight forward and b&w as you want it to make it sound.

[CHT]

Key Financial for Redbull Technology

Employees------------------605
Turnover--------------------US$344m
Cost of Sales---------------US$296m
Gross Profit----------------US$48m
Operating Profit-----------US$6.56m

US$344m will include product (cars) and services extended to both RBR and STR, sales to other products such as gearbox, hydraulic system etc to other F1 teams

[raymondu999]

I think, you massively underestimate the possibilities and the know how of the OEM's and their suppliers.
Does not even need to be "in-house", their are many external service suppliers like Bertrand, BTZ and others,
who work on both sides (road car & motorsport) for the OEM's (Manufacturers)
see as example

It's not as straight forward and b&w as you want it to make it sound.

What blue cat said.

[Raptor22]

F1 is a specialist sport, with specilaist requirements you don't just drop into Helmut in Stuttgart or Giuseppe in Maranello and say "think you can help with this?"

maybe not Helmut, but what about Hans-Peter?

........
Alle zwei Wochen trifft sich Hans-Peter Kollmeier, 43, mit den englischen Partnern. Er koordiniert die rennsportlichen Experten bei Mercedes. Zugleich ist Kollmeier die zentrale Anlaufstelle für alle Fragen, die womöglich von einem aus dem Heer der Daimler-Benz-Ingenieure beantwortet werden können.
........
Derzeit entwickelt das Werk neue Oberflächenbeschichtungen für die Zahnräder der in Woking gefertigten Getriebe. In der Forschungsabteilung kümmern sich Spezialisten um faserverstärkte Kunststoffe, die Designer Newey bei der Chassis-Produktion verwenden könnte, sogar Daimlers Luftfahrttochter Dasa wird in Materialfragen konsultiert.

I think, you massively underestimate the possibilities and the know how of the OEM's and their suppliers.
Does not even need to be "in-house", their are many external service suppliers like Bertrand, BTZ and others,
who work on both sides (road car & motorsport) for the OEM's (Manufacturers)
see as example

It's not as straight forward and b&w as you want it to make it sound.

Exactly. All manner of materials and services costs can be buried within the production factory overheads.
So have a proper overview of what their F1 operation encompasses we need to look at Income Statements and Balance Sheets and I doubt anyone on this forum has access to those

[WhiteBlue]

Key Financial for Redbull Technology

Employees------------------605
Turnover--------------------US$344m
Cost of Sales---------------US$296m
Gross Profit----------------US$48m
Operating Profit-----------US$6.56m

US$344m will include product (cars) and services extended to both RBR and STR, sales to other products such as gearbox, hydraulic system etc to other F1 teams

This just tells us that they had sales to somebody on this planet and made a small profit doing so. How much they sold to Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Toro Rosso is anybodies guess. They could have made the capsule for the stratos project or parts for air racers. Nobody can tell from these figures. F1 relevant data will only show in a consolidated group balance. So you can just as happily bin the figures. The only interesting statistic is the number of people employed. That figure gives a good idea of their kind of business, although it is not relevant for the RRA.

[FoxHound]

I think, you massively underestimate the possibilities and the know how of the OEM's and their suppliers.
Does not even need to be "in-house", their are many external service suppliers like Bertrand, BTZ and others,
who work on both sides (road car & motorsport) for the OEM's (Manufacturers)

Not at all Gato.

Do you think Red Bull and Red Bull technologies can justify a 600 million annual budget because they don't outsource to other suppliers?
My point is not the skill level or capabilities of OEMS or their suppliers, in certain specific areas they can do a very good job.
But we are talking nuts and bolts, radiators, alternators etc....and not a new front wing aero appendage that gives 0.3 seconds. If Suppliers could fix every problem, F1 would have 24 cars within 0.5 seconds. Why? Everyone would go to the same guy who fixed the previous ones problems.

No supplier can outdo the OEM/team in Aero, other than possible suspects Boeing, Lockheed and Airbus/Bae. If they could, the teams would be based there.

So of course it's not black and white, but there is certainly no reason why Red bull should be spending double that of Ferrari or Mercedes when they don't even pay for their engines. So I appreciate what you say Gato, but I also think perhaps you are over estimating suppliers capabilities. Why would Red Bull go the RBtech route otherwise?

@WB....So McLaren should have roughly the same overheads Red Bull Tech then as they supply Marussia and Force India?
I'll eat my hat if McLaren spend 30 million supplying these teams.

You are saying it is plausible that Caterham and Torro Ross could make up the 350 million spend?

I'll say it again. Red Bull Technologies main purpose is as a performance enhancer to the Red bull factory squad. It operates outside of the RRA, and has a budget of 350 million dollars. Thats' 100 million more than the Factory GP team....
So we have a GP team who have their own tailor made supplier, that has a bigger budget than the actual GP team.
And the only thing raised to contest this outrageous fact is that they supply Torro Rosso and Caterham?

Come on.

[bhall]

[...]
They could have made the capsule for the stratos project or parts for air racers. Nobody can tell from these figures. F1 relevant data will only show in a consolidated group balance. So you can just as happily bin the figures. The only interesting statistic is the number of people employed. That figure gives a good idea of their kind of business, although it is not relevant for the RRA.

Red Bull Technology only deals with F1. Stratos was an American project at Sage Cheshire Aerospace in California, and Red Bull Air Race uses two American planes.

I'm not sure I understand why it's so difficult for folks to believe that Red Bull Technology/Racing/GmbH are legally spending gobs of money on Formula One with non-RRA resources. They've found a loophole in the rules that suits them, and they're exploiting it. That's what teams are supposed to do in F1.

[CHT]

[...]
They could have made the capsule for the stratos project or parts for air racers. Nobody can tell from these figures. F1 relevant data will only show in a consolidated group balance. So you can just as happily bin the figures. The only interesting statistic is the number of people employed. That figure gives a good idea of their kind of business, although it is not relevant for the RRA.

Red Bull Technology only deals with F1. Stratos was an American project at Sage Cheshire Aerospace in California, and Red Bull Air Race uses two American planes.

I'm not sure I understand why it's so difficult for folks to believe that Red Bull Technology/Racing/GmbH are legally spending gobs of money on Formula One with non-RRA resources. They've found a loophole in the rules that suits them, and they're exploiting it. That's what teams are supposed to do in F1.

Below are the financial on RBT, total turnover is around US$350m and this include supply cars and technical services to BOTH STR and RBR, PLUS gearbox hydraulic etc etc sales to other F1 teams like Lotus and Caterham

So where is the $600m or so which you claim RBR is spending to win the WDC and WCC?

Employees------------------605
Turnover--------------------US$344m
Cost of Sales---------------US$296m
Gross Profit----------------US$48m
Operating Profit-----------US$6.56m