Red Bull RB9-Renault (pre-launch speculation)

[raymondu999]

Red Bull´s tactic will only work if they have the best race pace.
The times when they haven´t had that they have been gobbled up in the race.

I disagree.

Their strategy has been to get pole - and if they have bad race pace - they'd have a much better chance from pole any day.

[Cam]

Red Bull´s tactic will only work if they have the best race pace.
The times when they haven´t had that they have been gobbled up in the race.

I disagree.

Their strategy has been to get pole - and if they have bad race pace - they'd have a much better chance from pole any day.

Sorry Nando, I agree with Ray here. Red Bull have taken a refreshing (no pun intended) approach to winning races and Monza 2011 told that story in it's most clarity - black and white - for all to see in it's most raw form. How on earth could a Red Bull win Monza - a high speed circuit - with the 24th slowest top speed? Not only that, they put it on pole. Once you really understand the genius of this approach, it's hard to question doing it any other way.

The RB9 will be no different.

[raymondu999]

Yeah. And if, (as in Nando's example) Red Bull have a day of bad race pace - they'd have less of a chance of a good result from a mid-Q3 position, than from pole.

[Nando]

Sorry Nando, I agree with Ray here. Red Bull have taken a refreshing (no pun intended) approach to winning races and Monza 2011 told that story in it's most clarity - black and white - for all to see in it's most raw form. How on earth could a Red Bull win Monza - a high speed circuit - with the 24th slowest top speed? Not only that, they put it on pole. Once you really understand the genius of this approach, it's hard to question doing it any other way.

that´s fine

But you see, the reason they won in Monza was because they had the quickest race pace out of anyone.
Top speed is irrelevant if you are the quickest man over a full lap.

Do you remember what happened this year when they did not have the best race pace?
Red Bull was nowhere to be seen.

If you start P3 but you have the race pace to go with it then you will have a much bigger chance to win the race then if you start P1 and can´t even hold back the guys behind you. You will be a sitting duck.

[raymondu999]

If you start P3 but you have the race pace to go with it then you will have a much bigger chance to win the race then if you start P1 and can´t even hold back the guys behind you. You will be a sitting duck.

Am I correct in saying that you're basing your proposed conclusion, on the line of thinking of "biasing" a setup towards race vs quali, causing faster race pace and slower quali pace?

I believe that the Red Bull's constant max-downforce, low-top-speed configuration is not just for the sake of maximising their cornering - but also because of the car's aero map. To be frank I don't think the Red Bull would be as quick, if you were to set it up for better top speed, because their car is so downforce-efficient, and creates downforce for relatively little drag - that in reverse, when you take off downforce, the drag loss is less than the downforce cornering gain. Going with your example - race pace wouldn't matter at all, because they'd be stuck with the slow top speeds anyway.

Don't forget that the guy in P1 also has clean air - which in and of itself increases your race pace, by having more downforce, more cooling, and better tyre life.

[Nando]

Am I correct in saying that you're basing your proposed conclusion, on the line of thinking of "biasing" a setup towards race vs quali, causing faster race pace and slower quali pace?

No obviously you should always strive to get as high up on the grid as possible, i´m just saying that if someone that starts P2 or P3 has better race pace they will catch up and because of the DRS you have absolutely nothing to put up and the inevitable will happen.
And when they are ahead of you because you chose that type of setup (all attack, front running style) it means you don´t have a chance in hell of taking the position back.

The setup relies on having the best race pace, the quickest times over a lap. They can only assume they have that after Qualifying, if they don´t then they are in deep deep trouble.

[Sevach]

Changing Vettel's setup in Abu Dhabi was a good decision to make the best out of a bad situation, we don't know if that setup would've been any faster in clear air.

He didn't look that much faster than Kimi which people never expected to pose a challenge to RBR that weekend.

[raymondu999]

And when they are ahead of you because you chose that type of setup (all attack, front running style) it means you don´t have a chance in hell of taking the position back.

But what if it hurts your race pace to do anything else? What if decreasing wing and running a lower drag/df setup drastically reduces their race pace?

because of the DRS you have absolutely nothing to put up and the inevitable will happen.

Tell that to Vettel in Spain 2011 - Hamilton catches him at something like 1.3s/lap - and has DRS - and nothing comes of it. Hamilton had DRS for a good chunk of the race in Austin - and were it not for Karthikeyan holding Vettel up in the esses (something which, in hindsight, Vettel could have avoided) Hamilton probably wouldn't have got past. DRS + faster race pace does not a pass make.

And when they are ahead of you because you chose that type of setup (all attack, front running style) it means you don´t have a chance in hell of taking the position back.

I still disagree - look at Vettel in Silverstone 2010 and Spa 2012.

My point is - there have been overtakes made by cars with worse top speed, and there have been successful defences against cars with better top speed. Top end speed is not the end-all be-all of overtake and defense.

Changing Vettel's setup in Abu Dhabi was a good decision to make the best out of a bad situation, we don't know if that setup would've been any faster in clear air.

But we do know.
On the 17th lap of a stint on soft tyres, (L54) Vettel was in clean air and did a 1:43.964
Alonso on the 25th lap of a stint of medium tyres, (L53) did a 1:44.090

That's only 0.126s difference. Vettel, on 1 lap less fuel (worth in Abu Dhabi, about 1.1 tenths according to my notes) and on soft tyres that were 8 laps younger than the mediums on Alonso, was only able to do a fastest lap 0.126s faster. Read into that what you will.

[Nando]

But what if it hurts your race pace to do anything else? What if decreasing wing and running a lower drag/df setup drastically reduces their race pace?

I don´t think it won´t. I think the only reason they are running this setup is because they can at the moment.
When things go bad i´m positive they will change up their setup strategy because it´s built for staying at the front, assuming you can.

[Nando]

As far as Abu Dhabi goes, average lap time tells another story.

Vettel´s second stint, while in traffic was 2,5 seconds faster then Alonso´s.

Vettel ended the race only 3 seconds behind Alonso, and that was overtaking the field twice, hitting DRS boards, changing front wing etc etc.

[raymondu999]

Vettel ended the race only 3 seconds behind Alonso, and that was overtaking the field twice, hitting DRS boards, changing front wing etc etc.

But hitting the DRS board, changing front wing - didn't cost anything. They were done behind a safety car.

[Nando]

Vettel ended the race only 3 seconds behind Alonso, and that was overtaking the field twice, hitting DRS boards, changing front wing etc etc.

But hitting the DRS board, changing front wing - didn't cost anything. They were done behind a safety car.

It always costs time if you have to enter pits when you really should not have too.

[raymondu999]

Vettel ended the race only 3 seconds behind Alonso, and that was overtaking the field twice, hitting DRS boards, changing front wing etc etc.

But hitting the DRS board, changing front wing - didn't cost anything. They were done behind a safety car - and don't forget Vettel did the whole race on a faster tyre.

I think the only reason they are running this setup is because they can at the moment.

I disagree. Even if you wanted to overtake someone - you'd need equal or average race pace in the first place. If you reduce wing, for more overtaking opportunities - it's no use in the first place if they can't catch the guy ahead.

When things go bad i´m positive they will change up their setup strategy because it´s built for staying at the front, assuming you can.

I still don't buy it. If that were true - they would have done it when they were a midfielder team.

As it turns out, in the last year of their midfield stint (2008) here is how they did in qualifying speedtraps, and the deficit compared to the top speedtrap for each - there were 22 cars then.

Australia:
6) DC - 305.0 (-1.3)
Webber - 304.6 (-1.7)

Malaysia
20) DC - 298.2 (-9.4)
21) Webber - 298.1 (-9.5)

Bahrain
12) Webber - 304.7 (-9.4)
13) DC - 304.3 (-9.

Spain
DC - 308.4 (-4.7)
16) Webber - 307.0 (-6.1)

Turkey
7) Webber - 314.9 (-8.9)
12) DC - 313.7 (-10.1)

Monaco
11) Webber - 287.8 (-3.6)
12) DC - 287.2 (-4.2)

Canada
3) DC - 317.3 (-4.7)
12) Webber - 313.6 (-8.4)

France
11) Webber - 301.5 (-6.1)
13) DC - 301.0 (-6.6)

Great Britain
11) DC - 296.1 (-5.0)
15) Webber - 295.0 (-6.1)

Germany
13) DC - 313.3 (-5.9)
19) Webber - 310.7 (-8.5)

Hungary
11) DC - 291.6 (-3.4)
15) Webber - 290.8 (-4.2)

Valencia
5) Webber - 313.6 (-2.
7) DC - 313.2 (-3.2)

Spa
2) DC - 308.8 (-0.2)
5) Webber - 308.5 (-0.5)

Italy
1) Webber - 327.4
3) DC - 326.0 (-1.4)

Singapore
7) DC - 288.1 (-3.0)
12) Webber - 287.1 (-4.0)

Japan
3) DC - 314.8 (-2.2)
16) Webber - 310.8 (-6.2)

China
Webber - 314.0 (-2.0)
9) DC - 313.8 (-2.2)

Brazil
4) Webber - 307.6 (-5.
9) DC - 304.7 (-8.7)

Which leaves an average ranking, through the season, of 10th, and an average of 4.99 kph off the top of the speedtrap.

And I do reiterate that this is something that he's done for 20-odd years, not just in the last 5.

[MercAMGF1Fans]

Motorsport-total are reporting that the RB9 is behind schedule..
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 20407.html

[timbo]

Motorsport-total are reporting that the RB9 is behind schedule..
http://www.motorsport-total.com/f1/news ... 20407.html

Well, MP4-13 was behind the schedule as well. Will little change between 2012 and 2013 rules they can probably adopt RB8 for early races, although with testing limit this may put them on back foot.