Ferrari F2012

[raymondu999]

That is what, I meant, they need to upgrade their WT and make in function the way the Toyota one does.

That's exactly what they're doing now. But while their current WT is being fixed, they can't just use no wind tunnel. So they use the Toyota one, WHILE the Maranello one is being fixed.

[Plutus]

That is what, I meant, they need to upgrade their WT and make in function the way the Toyota one does.

That's exactly what they're doing now. But while their current WT is being fixed, they can't just use no wind tunnel. So they use the Toyota one, WHILE the Maranello one is being fixed.

I'm aware of that. I'm just saying they have had issues in the past.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Wouldn't it now also mean that Ferrari will have re-zero (is that even a word?) everything they've done. Sure, now they're at a new wind tunnel, but all their info has to be calibrated to this tunnel - won't that take time?

They've been using the Toyota tunnel for months now so I'm not sure that will be a problem.

[Cam]

Wouldn't it now also mean that Ferrari will have re-zero (is that even a word?) everything they've done. Sure, now they're at a new wind tunnel, but all their info has to be calibrated to this tunnel - won't that take time?

They've been using the Toyota tunnel for months now so I'm not sure that will be a problem.

I'm trying to find a quote by, Alonso I think, after Austin saying the new parts again didn't work as expected and I wondered if that was because they had to re-calibrate everything? So you think the data coming out of the Toyota Wind Tunnel is as good as anyone can get and correlates okay and any unexpected results is down to something else?

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Wouldn't it now also mean that Ferrari will have re-zero (is that even a word?) everything they've done. Sure, now they're at a new wind tunnel, but all their info has to be calibrated to this tunnel - won't that take time?

They've been using the Toyota tunnel for months now so I'm not sure that will be a problem.

I'm trying to find a quote by, Alonso I think, after Austin saying the new parts again didn't work as expected and I wondered if that was because they had to re-calibrate everything? So you think the data coming out of the Toyota Wind Tunnel is as good as anyone can get and correlates okay and any unexpected results is down to something else?

They were using the Toyota tunnel when they introduced the exhaust updates back in Canada, so I don't believe re-calibrating was the problem. Personally I think the development path the team took earlier in the season to hurry up & get the car competitive as quick as possible was done without thinking too far ahead(future development) and they maximized what they had without requiring a complete redesign of much of the car, which by the summer break(where development peaked) was too late to undertake redesigning much of the car.
They were still using both tunnels simultaneously and I think the Toyota tunnel with PIV and the basic older Maranello tunnel(without PIV) was giving the team mixed results which confused them. That's my opinion.
They developed quite a few parts earlier in the season with the Cologne tunnel that worked, and I'm just not of the opinion calibration was an issue. Toyota rent out their tunnel all the time, I think it's probably calibrated fine. Of course it would take time to see what correlation was between the two tunnels & compare both results to CFD Analysis but I don't think it was the Toyota tunnel that was the problem and I don't believe the team when they said towards the end of the year that wind tunnel problems were the cause of the failed updates because they were using one of the best tunnels in the world & had been for months. Hence my theory about reaching the development ceiling.

[Cam]

Thanks Crucial. Yeah, I wasn't thinking about it being an issue with the Toyota tunnel, more that Ferrari might not know what to do with accurate data after not having it for so long and having their internal systems calibrated to 'wrong' data. For the record I agree with you on the development ceiling.

[godlameroso]

So in essence Ferrari was getting different readings on the two wind tunnels, and sometimes the upgrades that showed promise in their tunnel worked and sometimes they didn't. However the readings from the Toyota tunnels were suggesting one thing and the effects never fully materialized on track. It sounds more like a good idea that just needs refinement, like I said Ferrari is great at being iterative not innovative.

[Coefficient]

So in essence Ferrari was getting different readings on the two wind tunnels, and sometimes the upgrades that showed promise in their tunnel worked and sometimes they didn't. However the readings from the Toyota tunnels were suggesting one thing and the effects never fully materialized on track. It sounds more like a good idea that just needs refinement, like I said Ferrari is great at being iterative not innovative.

Interesting isn't that the Toyota F1 Team were always dissapointed with their aero results. Even when they seized upon the Double Diffuser in 09 they didn't make much of an advantage out of it. Maybe their tunnel is poorly conceived/configured.

[Crucial_Xtreme]

Interesting isn't that the Toyota F1 Team were always dissapointed with their aero results. Even when they seized upon the Double Diffuser in 09 they didn't make much of an advantage out of it. Maybe their tunnel is poorly conceived/configured.

I don't believe the problem is the Toyota. I think it's the Engineers using it. McLaren uses the Toyota tunnel also. They don't have issues. So do other teams. If the problem was with the tunnel itself, I don't see other F1 teams paying money to use a poorly functioning tunnel.

[Boost]

I do think plutus is just a troll.
Anyway, even when the WT upgrade is done, it's possible Ferrari continue to use this tool, cause it's common for big teams to work simultaneously on several tunnels.

Remember the brawn gp? reports said they were using 4 tunnels at the same time !

That was before the resource agreements were bought in though. Teams are now limited to how much wind tunnel time that they can use.

[Coefficient]

Interesting isn't that the Toyota F1 Team were always dissapointed with their aero results. Even when they seized upon the Double Diffuser in 09 they didn't make much of an advantage out of it. Maybe their tunnel is poorly conceived/configured.

I don't believe the problem is the Toyota. I think it's the Engineers using it. McLaren uses the Toyota tunnel also. They don't have issues. So do other teams. If the problem was with the tunnel itself, I don't see other F1 teams paying money to use a poorly functioning tunnel.

So how does it work then? I imagined that when different teams use this tunnel they would take a mobile facility in the back of a truck with them to plug into the tunnel at cologne so they can compare their own data gathering with what comes out at Toyota HQ for correlation purposes and to exptrapolate any descrepancies which in turn would give rise to further refinements to their calibrations. I'd be interested to know how they go about this. This approach could also guard against any confidential remnants being left on the Toyota mainframe inadvertantly.

[C Plinius Secundus]

Interesting isn't that the Toyota F1 Team were always dissapointed with their aero results. Even when they seized upon the Double Diffuser in 09 they didn't make much of an advantage out of it. Maybe their tunnel is poorly conceived/configured.

I don't believe the problem is the Toyota. I think it's the Engineers using it. McLaren uses the Toyota tunnel also. They don't have issues. So do other teams. If the problem was with the tunnel itself, I don't see other F1 teams paying money to use a poorly functioning tunnel.

+1

Also, since the adoption of the computerized data gathering systems, any measuring instrument or testing facility is as good as the software used to collect and/or analyze the data. I wonder if the Ferrari software and/or the personnel assigned to use it are taking full advantage of it, as rumor has it (although I don't trust much any rumor) that their CFD area has been lagging behind the competition.
When Schumy joined the Scuderia, they took several years to gather and shape a championship winning team (people, new technologies, etc), and five season to win the championship. Will Alonso wait much more, or will he get itchy feet?

[diffuser]

Interesting isn't that the Toyota F1 Team were always dissapointed with their aero results. Even when they seized upon the Double Diffuser in 09 they didn't make much of an advantage out of it. Maybe their tunnel is poorly conceived/configured.

I don't believe the problem is the Toyota. I think it's the Engineers using it. McLaren uses the Toyota tunnel also. They don't have issues. So do other teams. If the problem was with the tunnel itself, I don't see other F1 teams paying money to use a poorly functioning tunnel.

You've probably read this before but g
Gary seems agree with you and adds that basically Ferrari hasn't learned to read the WT language.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20091800

Iteresting read, if you haven't.

Wish that Ferrari would just come out with it.

[timbo]

Gary seems agree with you and adds that basically Ferrari hasn't learned to read the WT language.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/20091800

Iteresting read, if you haven't.

Wish that Ferrari would just come out with it.

Interesting indeed.
Is that a new theory on General Relativity?

In effect, a racing car is travelling at a speed over the track but the mass of the car is moving slower because it is pushing air in front of it

[donskar]

Actually, IIRC, I offered a quote from that article much earlier in this thread:

And that's the main problem. Ferrari lack a visionary - someone like Red Bull's chief technical officer Adrian Newey.

I believe I said something to the effect that Red Bull and Ferrari had great engineering teams, but that Ferrari had a highly competent leader, but that Red Bull was led by a genius. Ferrari has a well-known driver development program and less-known program to develop engineers. The former seems to have some success; the latter . . .?