About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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bhall
bhall
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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Anything about the RRA is speculation at best, because we don't really know anything about it. The things I've mentioned are just unforeseen ways around FIA regulations that have come up in the discussion of the RRA.

That said, I think any RRA would have to be constitutional in authority and unprecedented in scope to be anything more than a speed bump. Bankers and politicians have spent generations carving out loopholes and safe havens for these kinds of things.

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raymondu999
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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In my view, where the RRA falls flat (based on what we seem to know) is that all restrictions apply to the team. IMO you have to ensure that the construction/design based restrictions - for example CFD/WT resources - apply to the constructor/designers, not the team, because of this reason.

You also have to investigate transactions to ensure that pricing is conducted at arms length, but even this is in my view circumventable, in the way that (to my memory - I could be wrong) Wirth and Virgin were structured. I seem to remember that the deal structure was Virgin paid Wirth a sum, worth XX million for a base design, and an upgrade package for the year. This, even a budget cap could not police, because estimates can indeed fall flat - meaning that the transaction never was always priced at arms length anyway (based on the faulty estimate)
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bhall
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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The RRA would make more sense if it was tied to the cars themselves rather than the teams who ostensibly produce them. However, oversight would then require the cooperation of all known F1 component suppliers, an ambitious target to say the least. Or parts and processes would need to have costs assigned to them based on historical pricing information, which seems counterintuitive to the goal of any resource restriction agreement, not to mention the alleged goal of F1, because it's damn difficult to make something more efficient if its cost is fixed for any reason, and it's quite impossible to assign value to any solution if it hasn't been invented yet.

In the end, the FIA and teams seem to have recognized that the only means for legitimately cutting costs is to restrict the composition of the cars. They're the only part of this whole deal that can be physically inspected to ensure compliance with the rules. (Charlie Whiting just barely gets that right anyway. It won't be too long until someone comes up with bendy suspension members that he'll no choice but to allow due to the inadequacy of his tests.)

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WhiteBlue
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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bhallg2k wrote:Anything about the RRA is speculation at best, because we don't really know anything about it.
It appears that you have not really read this thread. There are plenty of direct quotations from people who have been directly involved with the RRA and have told about it in public. There are also numerous publications in the F1 specific press about the issue. There are things we know and things we do not know. But to say we know nothing is plainly untrue.

To demonstrate this I can say with good authority that the RRA was a private contract between the FOTA teams and that it's original validity was until the end of this year. It is very simple to verify this by public quotations.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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FoxHound
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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You miss Bhalls point WB.

There is not much to go on other than staffing numbers, and even then there is nothing official so it could all be BS.
Face it, there is nothing official for the RRA. Nothing other than it exists.

If there is anything official you can supply sources from either FOTA or the FIA please?
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WhiteBlue
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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Nando wrote:So basically you can create these suppliers and strip down the actual team until it only consists of the team personels paycheck and run everything else through suppliers?
The RRA was set up as an alternative to a budget cap. The main push was for a head count under 300 for the teams. The RRA allowed for a certain amount of outsourced services. The figure was initially 30m and has been changed several times but always remained in that magnitude. According to the RRA teams are not meant to outsource substantial parts of their work usually done by the workforce.

This is the reason why I suspect that the loop hole used by Red Bull was defining the design team as "the team" for RRA purposes and outsourcing the racing operations. It would be a strange methodology but stranger things have already been done in F1 than such a trick.

The whole discussion is of relatively little value now because the RRA is effectively over. It has not been replaced or extended for the 2013 season according to our knowledge. The last thing we have heard about cost control under the new concord agreement is Jean Todt's announcement that the new strategic working group and the new F1 commission will be dealing with the item of a budget cap as soon as the 2013-2020 Concord is signed. This sound more like they will have a new focus that isn't looking so much into head count as they did in the past. The head count approach sounded simple but it addressed the question of a team outsourcing substantial work by looking at a service charge limit. And that approach involves just the same problems that a budget cap has. The question of defining entities, having them deal at arms length with non controlled entities, the question of verification and the question of penalties for infringements.

The RRA was less efficient than it could have been because it did not address all these questions. A future system will have to in order to work. F1 has enough reasons to deal with the cost control problem. The failure of the HRT team to join the 2013 season competition is ample proof of that. F1 is now poorer of two driver seats and one team. This will not help to promote F1 internationally. It will hurt. And if nothing is done to get the cost issue back on track there will be a lot more team failures in very short order. With the exception of Ferrari, Red Bull, McLaren and Mercedes every team could be on the block in the next three years. None of them has a stable financial foundation and they all will struggle in the coming years a lot more than they have in the last three years. The new power units and the expenditure for re designing the cars for them will be one factor. The other factor is that any change always suits the bigger teams with more resources more. So unless something is done very quickly we are going to see diminishing grids and abominations such as third cars or re branded cars from the top teams.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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WhiteBlue
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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FoxHound wrote:If there is anything official you can supply sources from either FOTA or the FIA please?
Why should the FiA or FOTA publish details of a private contract? The teams deliberately pushed the FiA out of this because one team refused to introduce budget caps - which they all had agreed in 2008 to introduce btw.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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FoxHound
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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So Bhall was right then.

We can only go on second hand information(not from source), and even the things you quoted that you take as gospel-
WhiteBlue wrote:The RRA allowed for a certain amount of outsourced services. The figure was initially 30m and has been changed several times but always remained in that magnitude. According to the RRA teams are not meant to outsource substantial parts of their work usually done by the workforce
-Is ridiculous as RBT are a de-facto racing team operating very much outside of what you have just posted.
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Nando
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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Any idea why this RRA is private? At least giving us an overview on what it really means would be nice.
Doesn´t have to be all the details for all teams but just a general look at how it works.
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Pierce89
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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WhiteBlue wrote: The teams deliberately pushed the FiA out of this because one team refused to introduce budget caps - which they all had agreed in 2008 to introduce btw.
I 'd like to see a source on this claim.
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bhall
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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WhiteBlue wrote:Why should the FiA or FOTA publish details of a private contract? The teams deliberately pushed the FiA out of this because one team refused to introduce budget caps - which they all had agreed in 2008 to introduce btw.
WhiteBlue wrote:[...] I have given you quotations from F1 officials who have publicly said that the RRA is a legally binding contract. I think we can take this as fact. It is also covered by publications that the FiA refused to enter into a CA in July 2009 unless all the teams of the 2010 championship had signed the RRA. This list is known and there are twelve teams left which will compete in 2011. Again we have facts that can be checked against official data recorded at the FiA and FOM websites. Leaving the FOTA organization does not change a mutual commitment that a team has made to the other eleven teams in a contract that covers the years 2010-2012.

[...]

The question of a possible exclusion of a team from the FiA F1 championship is subject to speculation. I have said that before. But one can take an educated guess. If a team consistently refuses to honor it's commitment to fair competition under the RRA I would have little personal doubt that the FiA would impose sanctions on that team in addition to the penalties awarded by the court. It is well known that the FiA shares the view that the sporting competition should not be fought on unlimited resources. In fact the policy of the federation calls for a return to budgets under $60m as they have been common before 1995. This is also a known fact that has been documented in the publication quoted in this thread.

[...]
Incidentally...
WhiteBlue wrote:[...]
Resource restrictions are better than a budget cap.
[...]
WhiteBlue wrote:[...]
My girl friend has not left me, I am still enjoying robust virility and my Viagra budget is zero.
[...]
:wtf:

And finally...
WhiteBlue wrote:Are you dense? Everbody knows there is a resource restriction agreement in place. It is constantly mentioned by all kinds of sources.

But it is secret!!!

So stop being a nuisance and don't ask me for a secret document that only insiders have seen.
[...]

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WhiteBlue
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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Pierce89 wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote: The teams deliberately pushed the FiA out of this because one team refused to introduce budget caps - which they all had agreed in 2008 to introduce btw.
I 'd like to see a source on this claim.
Well it appears you are not familiar with 2009 F1 history and I'm not going to deliver a seminar on this but I'm going to drop some hints to stimulate memory. The upshot was basically that all teams except Ferrari agreed in 2008 to introduce budget caps and participated in the FiA talks that involved the FCOs of all teams. In November or December 2008 Ferrari got cold feet because they realized that they were not prepared to compete on lower budgets. Max Mosley then decided to push the issue through and went ahead with a plan to have a two tier system with budget capped teams having greater technical freedom and unlimited teams with more restricted technical rules. That pushed the teams into Ferrari's camp and caused the well known break up and the formation of FOTA. Eventually Mosley was forced to step back and FOTA was in a position that they had to deliver on an own plan to control the cost of competing in F1. The RRA which was negotiated under the leadership of Adam Parr (then of Williams F1). You only need to read Wikipedia to read up on all these things.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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FoxHound
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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So you don't have any official FIA or FOTA information.

Just Wikipedia?
let's see this RRA of yours then WB.
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CHT
CHT
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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I honestly dont see a future in the RRA purely because F1 will always be an elitists sports where people associate it will celebrities, supercar, super model, private yacht, who's who etc and deep down, I dont think any team bosses on the grid would want that to change either.

Regardless how much FIA hope to drive the cost down, big teams will still continue to dominate the sports purely because they have the best personnel, facilities and infrastructure move their people around. While on the other hand, smaller team will continue to be back market and making up the numbers.

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Pierce89
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Re: About the F1 Resource Restriction Agreement

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WhiteBlue wrote:
Pierce89 wrote:
WhiteBlue wrote: The teams deliberately pushed the FiA out of this because one team refused to introduce budget caps - which they all had agreed in 2008 to introduce btw.
I 'd like to see a source on this claim.
Well it appears you are not familiar with 2009 F1 history and I'm not going to deliver a seminar on this but I'm going to drop some hints to stimulate memory. The upshot was basically that all teams except Ferrari agreed in 2008 to introduce budget caps and participated in the FiA talks that involved the FCOs of all teams. In November or December 2008 Ferrari got cold feet because they realized that they were not prepared to compete on lower budgets. Max Mosley then decided to push the issue through and went ahead with a plan to have a two tier system with budget capped teams having greater technical freedom and unlimited teams with more restricted technical rules. That pushed the teams into Ferrari's camp and caused the well known break up and the formation of FOTA. Eventually Mosley was forced to step back and FOTA was in a position that they had to deliver on an own plan to control the cost of competing in F1. The RRA which was negotiated under the leadership of Adam Parr (then of Williams F1). You only need to read Wikipedia to read up on all these things.
I've never seen a credible report that Ferrari was the only team against a budget cap.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher