Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

[diego1960]

Thanks Fox.

20kg more than the others? That is a huge difference, and yet they couldn't even make the exhausts work. It is a real sign of despair when you see them reverting to the older spec and being more competitive with them. I wonder if they ever really learned anything of the coanda exhaust, I suspect that their competitors having successful systems will always be one step ahead, no?

[user001]

Thanks Fox.

20kg more than the others? That is a huge difference, and yet they couldn't even make the exhausts work. It is a real sign of despair when you see them reverting to the older spec and being more competitive with them. I wonder if they ever really learned anything of the coanda exhaust, I suspect that their competitors having successful systems will always be one step ahead, no?

yes 20kg more. it was a disgrace to watch michael in the first corner of the race in austin. in comparison to the other cars besides him he nearly stoppes at the apex.

yes, that's what i wrote in my last post. merc is half a year behind at this time regarding coanda. though they already have a design team for the 2014 car i'm really curious how much effort they will bring to their updates in 2013. it will be really interesting how much the sophisticated coanda teams can improve their downforce levels and whether merc can catch up at all.

[ringo]

As for 2014 regs. I see this as an advantage for mercedes. The amount of downforce doesn't necessarily mean it will be easier to create a competitive car. As we've seen fromt he post 2008 cars, reducing downforce in facts makes it even more critical to extract downforce from the limited aero bodywork that is stipulated in the regs.
Having stable aero regs in the form of the 2012 rules is indeed an advantage and will give the engine guys even more leverage.
As it relates to safety it was a wise decision to keep the downforce levels up.
As it relates to aero desing, the aero is as stripped down as can be IMO. Appart from the front and rear wings, there's not much more to take away.
When the cars get even more stripped to the bone, Newey will still be the one finding that diamond in the rough. The 2012 regs is sticking with the devil they know. And i believe this would bode well for Hamilton, Rosberg and the design team.

I am actually looking forward to next year. The car cannot be worse, logically the car should be much improved, if the the new appointments and windtunnel models are anything to go by.
The W03 is in file thirteen, i don't expect any similarities to the W04.

What will be interesting however, is if the car is quite good and can compete at the front, how will the operation manage the pressure. Little things like pitstops, qualifying strategy; shadowing ferrari and the like. They're in for some serious pressure if the expectations are high after the first race.

[spadeflush]

An improvement in pitstop times is a must next year. The team was very slow in 2012. Maybe Hamilton can bring some secrets from McLaren.

[marcush.]

Agree nando.

@Deigo

Bell is now working within engines, and it's integration into the car. I would guess he is heading research into Coanda development for the W04 and also to reduce the fuel usage of their system. They where carrying around 20Kgs more fuel than other cars just to utilise their exhausts correctly. So while they may work, as 5th place quali suggested, in race it is hampered by excessive fuel consumption and the pitfalls of this problem...excessive mass.

Bell's skillset is mainly in management I'm led to believe. So while he may not be offering solutions, he will certainly be sifting through the better solutions presented by the group.

jet --costa is head of design and responsible for a lot more than engine integration. Brawns interview on GP international was quoted a few weeks ago by me already were he explained the organigramme of MGP..

true ,I am in favour of Schumacher ,but I´m an old BAR fan as well..Sow hat to make of this?

The powerbashing I mentioned -I was not even half thinking about this important site...rest assured the german media ,lewis and his management and the world at large will be enough to shoot them down if they are not delivering .
i´m actually surprised they survived till now.According to german newspapers (not tabloids) Brawn and Haug are very close to
having lots of time very soon ...

[PlatinumZealot]

The W04 Chassis should be completed already... the Coanda must be taking priority on the CAD systems as we speak.
Then there is the suspension. The team will abondon the hydraulically linked suspension for something more simple and workable. This is where Aldo Costa comes into play.... He has a reputation as a great mechanical designer as we saw in the Ferrari F10.

[Hail22]

The W04 Chassis should be completed already... the Coanda must be taking priority on the CAD systems as we speak.
Then there is the suspension. The team will abondon the hydraulically linked suspension for something more simple and workable. This is where Aldo Costa comes into play.... He has a reputation as a great mechanical designer as we saw in the Ferrari F10.

Do you think the material "Zylon" will play a part in the W04's FW makeup (Zylon cabling inside the FW pylon).

[Cocles]

An improvement in pitstop times is a must next year. The team was very slow in 2012. Maybe Hamilton can bring some secrets from McLaren.

They have it in them. They were the fastest pit crew in 2011.

[PlatinumZealot]

The W04 Chassis should be completed already... the Coanda must be taking priority on the CAD systems as we speak.
Then there is the suspension. The team will abondon the hydraulically linked suspension for something more simple and workable. This is where Aldo Costa comes into play.... He has a reputation as a great mechanical designer as we saw in the Ferrari F10.

Do you think the material "Zylon" will play a part in the W04's FW makeup (Zylon cabling inside the FW pylon).

I must admit have heard Zylon mentioned here before but I don't remember what it is.

Ah! according to Wikipedia, F1 Regulation requires that Zylon fibres are used as a shrapnel absorber in the chassis (where you would have Kevlar I guess), for the same in at the crown of the driver's helmet and for use as the rope in the wheel tethers.

Now for cabling in the front wing... The Youngs modulus of Zylon is 250 GPA according to wiki. That is actually 50 GPA more than steel. It's harder to stretch for the same cross section than steel.
But I think you are interested in allowing the wing to move? Like on a hinge? Is that what you were thinking?
Your wing movement would be so small at about 5mm, that you might not need a long cable.
The rules state that mechanical moving parts are banned. (pulleys, moving cables (like a tug rope), linkages etc) So if you were thinking of stretching to allow flexing It would have to be a part disguised as a bolt or a simple stud to make it pass as a non-moving part. The cable cannot have mechanical movement (like the driver pulling on a cable) thought it is legal for mechanics to adjust such a part in the pits (Mclaren brake ducts).

IT's very likely that Zylon could be used as a tension cable, but do you know how it responds to fatigue? It's so stiff that you will only need a zylon string to hold up the wing and to get it move that 5mm, which is a big ask. It might work better off with a more elastic material.

[FoxHound]

jet --costa is head of design and responsible for a lot more than engine integration. Brawns interview on GP international was quoted a few weeks ago by me already were he explained the organigramme of MGP..

true ,I am in favour of Schumacher ,but I´m an old BAR fan as well..Sow hat to make of this?

The powerbashing I mentioned -I was not even half thinking about this important site...rest assured the german media ,lewis and his management and the world at large will be enough to shoot them down if they are not delivering .
i´m actually surprised they survived till now.According to german newspapers (not tabloids) Brawn and Haug are very close to
having lots of time very soon ...

Marcush, my post was in reference to a question from diego. I'm aware of Costa's role.
And fair enough for for favouring Schumacher, he was/is a wonderful driver. But the criticisms you constantly deliver to this team is a bit over the top.
I can go to the old 2012 team thread and quote 6 or 7 posts over a week, saying the same thing but redacted to suit conversation.
I have been critical of Mercedes myself this year, but it seems to have been drowned out. But in fairness to them they are shifting and changing where they can.

My overview is that the only way Mercedes can win wdc and wcc is to copy Red bull in having a supplier body outside of agreed RRA principles(budget, computer processing power, wind tunnel time and size).
Any changes outside of this, will be for second or third place maximum.

[Hail22]

I must admit have heard Zylon mentioned here before but I don't remember what it is.

Ah! according to Wikipedia, F1 Regulation requires that Zylon fibres are used as a shrapnel absorber in the chassis (where you would have Kevlar I guess), for the same in at the crown of the driver's helmet and for use as the rope in the wheel tethers.

Now for cabling in the front wing... The Youngs modulus of Zylon is 250 GPA according to wiki. That is actually 50 GPA more than steel. It's harder to stretch for the same cross section than steel.
But I think you are interested in allowing the wing to move? Like on a hinge? Is that what you were thinking?
Your wing movement would be so small at about 5mm, that you might not need a long cable.
The rules state that mechanical moving parts are banned. (pulleys, moving cables (like a tug rope), linkages etc) So if you were thinking of stretching to allow flexing It would have to be a part disguised as a bolt or a simple stud to make it pass as a non-moving part. The cable cannot have mechanical movement (like the driver pulling on a cable) thought it is legal for mechanics to adjust such a part in the pits (Mclaren brake ducts).

IT's very likely that Zylon could be used as a tension cable, but do you know how it responds to fatigue? It's so stiff that you will only need a zylon string to hold up the wing and to get it move that 5mm, which is a big ask. It might work better off with a more elastic material.

From what I know Zylon is used for the side crash structure as well as inside the suspension rods to protect cables.

I'm thinking of a small assortment of Zylon could be used for the FW pylon in very small strands, because its so strong you would only need a thin/small amount that would yield/bend to that 5-10mm, so if it was possible it could (tilt) the wing to the desired angle...as much as its minute and small, I wouldn't see why it couldn't give a slight benefit/advantage? I may be wrong!

[Vasconia]

the 2013 tyres will degregate quicker than 2012er which makes it even more harder for merc.

Not necessarily. The problem was the narrow window of operation. The accelerated rate of degradation was just a symptom of that. Supposedly, the window of operation will be widened in 2013, which will be very, very good for Mercedes.

Well, yes but it would be also good for the other teams. So I expect Mercedes to be once again one of the worst "of the class". The only solution I can see in a deep re-develoment of the suspension system.

[diego1960]

Well their problem is that they always seek the "silver bullet". They did it in 2009 with DD and it worked and since then they have wasted time, effort and resources trying to replicate that success. From what I've seen (what we've all seen) it doesn't work. I would like to see a more conservative W04 if it means that everything on the car works as it is supposed to, and gives them a fairly good base to build on.

Then again, even if they achieve all that they still have to keep developing the car. In 2011 they where fine but in 2012 they where horrible. Surely, they changed the 50%model for a 60% one but is that the only reason? I certainly hope so but if it is expectations will be much higher for 2013.

[OppositeLock]

Well their problem is that they always seek the "silver bullet". They did it in 2009 with DD and it worked and since then they have wasted time, effort and resources trying to replicate that success. From what I've seen (what we've all seen) it doesn't work. I would like to see a more conservative W04 if it means that everything on the car works as it is supposed to, and gives them a fairly good base to build on.

Then again, even if they achieve all that they still have to keep developing the car. In 2011 they where fine but in 2012 they where horrible. Surely, they changed the 50%model for a 60% one but is that the only reason? I certainly hope so but if it is expectations will be much higher for 2013.

They don't really have a choice but to be conservative with the W04 because of the rule changes . The flexy wing and the passive ddrs are the only bits of fairy dust worth chasing.

[ringo]

I see what diego is saying. Best to have a workable platform that an inflexible thingamajig that has a single trick that only works in the first few races.
I feel with their new design team, we'll get a level headed car. They must realize by now that they were doing cake decorating instead of baking. The cute little devices on the car cant make it fast all over.
A solid base with very neutral and open development path in the beginning of the season. Heck, if they build a lotus e20 they are good to go for 2013. Couple that to mercedes power and we have a winner.

What's funny is that i was one mercedes bigges critics from the w01. Being most critical of the nose of the car. I always put down the team and what needed to change. It seems they are making those changes now. And to be frank, with Hamilton coming over, I guess I'm gonna be paying more attention to the team.
They have the strongest driver pairing in F1 right now, and with such a shoddy run 3year their 2013 season will be most intriguing.