Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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oh -have you thought about this one:
The Hutt was dreaming of a silverarrow team in formula1 since the late sixties ,maybe.They had some goes at it which eihter failed or did not pan out as intended (sauber /Mclaren).
Then came this golden -or silver?- opportunity made up by Brawn and 'Fry who from the very first moment had only one target :
convince Haug to talk Daimler into buying the team..they did not have any real alternatives or were simply not interested (Branson)as they wanted to cashin big time..
The dream came true and Daimler bought a big tranch of the team and Haug really believed in what he bought .add to this
miracle Schumacher and the plate was fully dressed.The German dream team.
Hard to wake up and realise it was not the deal he thought he had done ...the team and everything in disarray and endless
justifications not only in public but also in front of your bosses.
Then -at a most crucial time -the team diverts time and precious monetary recources towards a new driver instead of trying to keep a known asset.-Again Fry and Brawn instrumental in this -and Schumacher calling it quits when all the new boffins should come good ...
I´d think Haug has seen enough and chose to quit before he is a scapegoat of all the failings and gets his head chopped .No question the team has now lost all the cushion towards the DAI board (as AABAR was bought out and neither Brawn nor Fry are shareholders anymore)...

It may just be the confirmation of a man realising he took the wrong horse to chase his dream..and decides to disappear in the sunset before getting shot by Billy ze(sche) kid ...
Last edited by marcush. on 15 Dec 2012, 19:04, edited 1 time in total.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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marcush. wrote:I´d think Haug has seen enough and chose to quit before he is a scapegoat of all the failings and gets his head chopped ...
Have a look at this post. It was posted when Lauda was announced and predicted Haug's head to roll. The reasoning is as valid now as it was then.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

Richard
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Can we leave the "Red Bull didn't win much in the first few years" defence out of this please? Every time I read that I also think of BMW, Toyota & Honda. So far, all 4 manufacturer teams are treading a familiar path of promising success next year as an excuse for poor performance this year.

So - no more Red Bull comparisons. It just leads to bickering.

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:
marcush. wrote:I´d think Haug has seen enough and chose to quit before he is a scapegoat of all the failings and gets his head chopped ...
Have a look at this post. It was posted when Lauda was announced and predicted Haug's head to roll. The reasoning is as valid now as it was then.
Come on WB ..
We have predicted this here for a long time and just wondered what might be his trumpcard saving him after all the failings .
(starting with flying silver arrows in LeMans !)

If you think Lauda has a workable idea of process management and how to run a team I ´d recommend a few hours in fresh air in the morning and a thorrow rethink of how you would explain this.

Lauda is a celebrity of sorts a public person paid money for airing brainfarts during TV broadcasts.I have absolutely no doubt he has no idea of how to run a formula1 team ,current technologies or anything to do with quality management .
Yes he used to have a brush in every cockpit of his laudaair planes and the pilots were obliged to clean the cockpit during long flights but does this make him an expert or the expert missing at MGP? I have my doubts.

I don´t even think Lauda was instrumental in Haugs departure .

elf341
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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It does stink a bit of being pushed out doesn't it though?
Taking my cynical hat off, Mercedes appear to be going from strength to strength whether it be seriously strengthening their technical team, or grabbing Hamilton. All indications are that this team could be headed for some serious success.

Why leave now? Especially at a point which is arguably the lowest, performance-wise, that Mercedes has produced over the past 3 years.

I think he was offered a dignified exit, or an undignified one - and took the former.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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The point I try to make is that Lauda was put into the position that Haug used to have. To work as an interface between the Daimler board and the Race and engine teams in England. Zetsche should not have had a need to hire Lauda if Haug had been on eye level with the people that count. But he wasn't. So he became redundant and his departure is the consequence of his failure to do his primary job.

Haug's job function was similar to what Marko does at Red Bull. He isn't supposed to be team principal or technical. He is supposed to know whom to hire and fire and to do business on behalf of the parent company with the commercial side of F1. Marko for all his faults managed to do those things. Haug lost Zetsche's trust that he is capable of filling his job spec and had to pay the price.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

gato azul
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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FoxHound wrote: We know it cost Haug his job, but he was a PR man not an engineer.
That may very well be his background (journalist), but the business card I have in front of me states
"Vice President Mercedes-Benz Motorsport", which would put some responsibility onto his shoulders, don't you think?
It does not read, "Communications Manager or Press Officer" or whatever you want to call it.
AFAIK, this position is held by Wolfgang Schatling, as far as Mercedes-Benz Motorsport is concerned.

He was in a senior management position, and you would think (hope), that he would have a say, in how things are done,
and if he sees, that things don't go the way, they were intended to go, he would make some changes to the course of the ship ( if we wanna keep the captain analogy).
I'm not saying, that guy is an idiot, I'm not saying, that he never did anything good or right in his job, but he himself admitted, that his last assignment didn't perform to expectations.
Now we can argue if the expectations were realistic or not, but he seemed to be well aware, what they were, and that he missed them.It's a relative normal occurrence in any management role.
You present your plan/idea, set out the parameters (roadmap), define your milestones, and make your risk assessment (scenario planing).
You present this to the board, or the higher ups in the chain of command, and if they sign off on it, then you are on your own. If you keep missing your targets, whatever they may be (sales, points, championship position, market share, profits), you will have to answer some questions. Normally no one will give a toss who's fault it is, that the targets are not met, they will only wanna know, what are you going to do about it.
If you are lucky, you will get the chance to put the thing back on track, if not, you will be replaced by someone else.
And right now, it looks like, that the Daimler board chose the second option, rightly or wrongly remains to be seen, and lays in the eye of the beholder.

What we can say is, that there was a rather sudden change in direction for the whole F1 project. What we don't know yet, is what has caused it. Maybe he was not fired, and just decided to throw in the towel, as Marcus suggests, maybe their are personal reason, who let him reconsider the situation ( I hope that's not the case, and that he and his family are still in good health), or he and his bosses could not agree on a way forward from here, and he lost the backing/credit/goodwil he once had. We can speculate about it, maybe some things will emerge over the next month/years which will shed more light on the situation.

Now, you as well as anyone on here, are free to draw your conclusions out of the facts we have. If for you the situation is not as bad/bleak as it looks for others, then this is your good right, but what does it change.
At the end of the day, it's the Daimlers board (or their shareholders) opinion which matters. Maybe sacrificing Haug, was just a way for Zeschke to buy himself a bit more time, and an attempt to get his head from the block for now.
Maybe if this attempt fails, he will be the next one, who will need to assume responsibility for his decisions. Maybe all turns out well, Hamilton is on the pace, and from 2014 onward MGP will dominate F1 in a fashion, never seen before.
We will have to wait and see, how it shakes out.

Take a look at Wendelin Wiedeking, it's not like, he did not do any good for Porsche. He did a great job for a long time, but ultimatively he made a mistake, his fault or not, his plan to take over did not succeed, and he paid the price for it.
None of the many great decisions and things he did before, saved him.
Could be a similar situation with Haug, he had his ups and downs, he survived some things, which could have easily have cost him his job in the past (e.g. LeMans, Spygate etc.), but maybe this time, it did not work out for him, and he was made to pay the price. (His fault or not, does not really matter)
But maybe Marcus is right, and he decided to jump before the whole thing blows up, or maybe there are other reasons, we don't know yet.

What remains, is his admission, that the project has underperformed, compared to the objectives set out by themself.
That may still be a lot better, then other similar projects by others in overall terms, but that matters little to guys on the Daimler board. According to their set out objectives and standards, the project has underperformed until now.

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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I agree with that assessment fully gato. And your response is something every detractor this team has should learn from.
No silly name calling, downvoting or somesuch, just honest to goodness constructive posting.

I will respond in length when I'm at home later... Suffice to say that I agree with your view gatinho.
JET set

marcush.
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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WhiteBlue wrote:The point I try to make is that Lauda was put into the position that Haug used to have. To work as an interface between the Daimler board and the Race and engine teams in England. Zetsche should not have had a need to hire Lauda if Haug had been on eye level with the people that count. But he wasn't. So he became redundant and his departure is the consequence of his failure to do his primary job.

Haug's job function was similar to what Marko does at Red Bull. He isn't supposed to be team principal or technical. He is supposed to know whom to hire and fire and to do business on behalf of the parent company with the commercial side of F1. Marko for all his faults managed to do those things. Haug lost Zetsche's trust that he is capable of filling his job spec and had to pay the price.
RedBull is a different beast to Daimler and Haug has mastered the waters 22odd years...he has to be considered as a true pro in his own affairs.
Far from Marko who effectively has to convince Didi Mateschitz or better he had to earn his trust some time ago ,Norby had to manage his own career AND try to keep Daimlers Motorsport business in healthy water and that´s also a incredible task considering how BMW,Honda,Toyota etc fell quickly out of the picture.
Haug did everything to nail Daimler to Formula 1 not just as an engine supplier but also as a works team ...Marko is not even dreaming of what is necessary to find the moneys and support to commit to something similar.
MGP and AMG Powertrains is in fact a huge marketing exercise and it hinges directly on success .I´m sure Haug realised he would not be in a position to save his job before success may happen ...so it´s better to take the bag of bucks now and leave with the success you had -he can at least claim he was instrumental in Daimlers return to Formula 1 as a team.
Last edited by marcush. on 15 Dec 2012, 19:08, edited 1 time in total.

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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marcush. wrote:Haug did everything to nail Daimler to Formula 1 not just as an engine supplier but also as a works team ...Marko is not even dreaming of what is necessary to find the moneys and support to commit to something similar. MGP and AMG Powertrains is in fact a huge marketing exercise and it hinges directly on success .
Aren' t you over looking the vast similarities?
Red Bull in Salzburg and Daimler in Stuttgart are both in F1 for the glory and for advertising. Their core business isn't racing and their chief decision makers are remote from F1. They both need a trusted link to the motor sport world which is for both corporations located in the UK.

They both need success and the bosses at home need to be assured that the top people running these expensive operations are capable and experienced. For this purpose they both have a person of trust and authority on scene who can override any local decision in the UK or bring the situation to the attention of the parent company to take action if required.

Haug simply failed to put things together and Zetsche isn't used to play third or fifth role anywhere. So whatever the reason, the failed Concord or being beaten by Lotus Zetsche's patience with his man has run out.

I'm pretty sure Lauda is going to do better than Haug when it comes to making tough calls. This will work as a rally cry and a wake up call for the Merc guys in the team and the engine factory in England. Perform or you will be given the boot.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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@ Gato Azul

With Haug, it's logical that there would be some sort of repercussions as regard his position. But the fact remains he is not responsible for the performance fo the team. He saw the oppurtunity to bring back Mercedes in an official works team capacity, and given his track record and connections, Zetsche bought into Haug's vision.
It's not quite nightmarish, but they have missed all targets and suffered a terrible second half of 2012.

Haug has gone and fallen on his sword. I wouldn't say it's the equivalent of Hara-Kiri, but professionally at least it looks as though he jumped before he was about to be pushed. From all reports, he is well liked within F1. From Schumacher and Whitmarsh right through to Lauda himself.

And herein lies the problem.

Perhaps Haug was too well liked for his good nature? The lines between Stuttgart and Brackley where supposedly clear with Haug reporting to Zetsche. But perhaps some things went on that didn't go reported?
Each year another issue that required investment.
In 2010 we had a new simulator and tyre guru.
In 2011 we had Mercedes increase their staffing level and get added firepower in the tech dept.
In 2012 we have an upgraded windtunnel and comings and goings.

By the third time of asking it may have been a bit of a stretch?

It's because of this I think Zetsche wanted someone who wasn't going to meander about, and would just cut to the chase.
Lauda is his chosen man, and I can see benefits, but also pitfalls with him being the communication line now.
At least Stuttagart will get a "warts and all" report from Lauda, but at the risk of ruffling a fair few people the wrong way.
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gato azul
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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FoxHound wrote:@ Gato Azul

With Haug, it's logical that there would be some sort of repercussions as regard his position. But the fact remains he is not responsible for the performance fo the team. He saw the oppurtunity to bring back Mercedes in an official works team capacity, and given his track record and connections, Zetsche bought into Haug's vision.
...........
That's all quite possible, and we will perhaps never know.
We can trade opinions on this, and I'm sure we will have as many as we have members on this BB.
It's quite common, in situations like this, that someone has to assume responsibility and take the fall if needed, that just
comes with the territory (the job itself).
What happens more often then not, is that people lose their objectivity in this situations, especially if they had a good run/track record of success before. It's tempting to think, that you have the "midas touch" and can't do wrong.
What happened with MGP in itself is maybe not a "train wreck", but that will depend on the pov and on the expectations one
has. I think, Haug was a bit "sloppy" in his risk assessment and did not do a realistic scenario planing.
He underestimated the possible down side, and did not really had a Plan B or a exit strategy. But this is just my opinion,
and I'm happy for others to have their own.
I'm sure he had good intentions, and that his plan made a lot of sense on paper, but you what they say: "The road to hell is
paved with good intentions". I'm sure he had it all mapped out, Mercedes winning (at least races) with MSC, the lost son coming home, and we go full circle. That would have been the capstone on his career, but it was not meant to be.
Can you blame him? Not from an enthusiast/fan p.o.v., but from a management p.o.v. you can - IMHO
He just failed to take such a worse case scenario into account, and therefore not really had a contingency plan for it.
He just banked on his ability to make it all work. That's why I said earlier, he bed the farm on this project.
Then more and more things started to snowball out of control and turning against him.
RRA not really going the way he had hoped/envisioned it, meaning more cash would be needed then initial budgeted for. AARAB trowing in the towel (for whatever reason), meaning that Daimler needed to take more money into it's hands to buy them out. That money needed to come from somewhere, and if no budgeted for, will come off their profits, sequencing their margins even more.
Now that Daimler is the whole owner their risk/cost exposure has increased significantly.
Again, not the end of the world in itself, but if not anticipated has the potential to change the perspective of the board/shareholders in terms of the benefits (vs. risk) of the whole project.
Boards/Shareholders normally don't like surprises, not this kind of surprises anyway.

Then the delay or inability to reach a beneficial solution with FOM and cut a deal in terms of the Concord Agreement.
The fact, that the board felt the need (rightly or wrongly) to bring in Lauda ( an external adviser), shows that Haug lost somewhat the grip on the whole project. He became paralyzed by the events surrounding him, seeing his dream fade away and all his plans unravel in front of his eyes.
That at the same time, the DTM campaign hit a new low, surely did not helped him.

He reminds me a bit of an trader, who will watch the market turn against him, unable to liquidate his position, watching in
amazement the ever increasing losses, unable to pull the trigger and getting out , hoping against hope, that it all will turn out o.k., until he is wiped out or a margin call forces him to close the position.
It, was not the initial trade (plan/business) which ruined him, but being unable to do something about it, when it started to go belly up. Now, perhaps the board has made the margin call to him, forcing him out of his position.
That's just my take on it - could be all wrong.
As you say, being too involved/invested in the whole project on a personal level (friends, buddies & amigos) does not help, only a sound contingency planning and iron discipline do.

But, I still don't rule out the possibility that he quit on his own, and/or that there can be some personal reasons (health, family) which are outside the direct scope of MGP.
The timing and style how this was done, and announced is a bit suspect, that does not look like a "planed execution".
That he would miss his targets, could be seen since a long time ( at least since Monaco), so if they wanted him to take the fall for that, it could have been handled a bit more "elegant", seeing that he just turned 60.
He could have been complemented out of the job, with a cake and a farewell party at the last GP, citing his age and some company policy as reasons.
Also there does not appear to be any contingency planning for this case/event on Mercedes side (does not paint a good picture of the organisation as well), and I can't really see Lauda assuming the Mercedes-Motorsport manager position, including DTM/F3 and all. Which makes we wonder, if the board really throw him under the bus on short notice, that would
be a bit like cutting ones nose to spit ones face.

But who knows, stranger things have happened, their is a lot of ego involved in this sport/business

Daimler is stuck in a "too big to fail" position now, there is no real exit strategy, so they will have to bite the bullet and throw more money and resources into the project, to try to save face and maybe make it work somehow.

I'm still a bit surprised what happened with the FOM/Eccelstone being convicted threat , and how they will get this into accordance with their Cooperate Government policy, as they now seem to have committed for a time frame in which Eccelstone could be found guilty and being convicted.

The change in the top management of MHPE at the same time also seems to be a bit suspicious. Maybe pure coincidence, but maybe not. Just wondering, if their were some skeletons falling out of the closet.
Things like budget overruns which were tried to be brushed under the carpet &/or problems with the 2014 engine.
Seeing that there are some speculations that FI could jump ship to Ferrari, that would have a massive effect on the turnover/cost projections of the 2014 engine program.
That's pure speculation on my part, could well be wrong, just thinking out loud, but the timing and dynamics of the latest events are a least interesting, if not suspicious.

I will leave it at this, I don't really have a dog in this fight and I'm not in the business of trying to predict the future.
More of an interested observer, so I will leave the more vivid discussions to the hard core fans, but it would be nice
if the mudslinging would not be aimed at others (teams etc.), just in attempts to rationalize & rectify the performance of
your own heroes.

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ringo
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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This may be a blunt and seemingly shallow reply, but i believe Micheal Shumacher could be poised to move up the ladder in Mercedes. Maybe not is Haug's exact position, but a position that could fit into some of the responsibilities white blue suggested. I think Micheal should have some level of influence by now and credibility when it comes to understanding the sport and being able to communicate that to Stuttgart.
What was he at Ferrari again after he retired?

from wikipedia: During the 2007 season Schumacher acted as Ferrari's advisor and Jean Todt's 'super assistant'
For Sure!!

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WhiteBlue
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Michael wants to jump out of air craft, fall from motor cycles, ride quarter horses with his wife, look after his son's carting and racing and probably do some activities with his daughter. He has no intention to do a boring business day behind a desk. If he is going to have a role with Mercedes it will be much less stress full than playing Zetsche's watch dog in the UK. This is just my humble opinion, people can have deviating opinions which I respect.
Formula One's fundamental ethos is about success coming to those with the most ingenious engineering and best .............................. organization, not to those with the biggest budget. (Dave Richards)

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FoxHound
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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marcush. wrote:opportunity made up by Brawn and 'Fry who from the very first moment had only one target :
convince Haug to talk Daimler into buying the team..the did not have any real alternatives or were simply not interested (Branson)as they wanted to cashin big time..
So you paint Haug as naive, Brawn and Fry as money grabbers and then.....
marcush. wrote:the team diverts time and precious monetary recources towards a new driver instead of trying to keep a known asset.-Again Fry and Brawn instrumental in this
When Schumacher himself allows his contract renewal date to slip past, it is once more the fault of Brawn and Fry? That one lays at Schumacher's door, you cannot put that on Brawn or Fry or Mercedes or anything other than MSC himself.
That they got Lewis Hamilton, should really tell you exactly where they are as a team next year. He is quicker than Schumacher currently is, I'm sure most would agree. So if the car is down 1 second on the leaders...then that's where you are at.

So what's the problem? Another opportunity to kick the team marcush? Schumacher is gone now, and it was of his own doing.
Accept that and let the 2013 thread move forward.
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