Driver styles/preferences

[godlameroso]

Yes. Prost makes it sound weird though - as if he never did seat of the pants feeling and was more about judging based on visual feedback. That's how I saw it, at least through his description of seeing the car moving and pitching. If my conclusion is correct - it could explain why Prost wasn't as good in the wet

Feeling a car moving around is all about gut instinct.

Exactly, driving is something that has to be intuitive, there can't be any thoughts standing between you and the act. In a way a driver is trying to hypnotize himself, and it's easiest to do it when things are calm with no pressure. Once conditions change a driver has to adapt, in essence re-hypnotize himself, but you can't because thoughts start getting in the way of driving. You start questioning how much slip angle you can give the tires, how hard can you break into the next corner. Some drivers don't care they have so much faith and confidence in their abilities that thoughts never cross their minds. You could see it in Spa 2008, you could see it in Canada 2011, and Hungary, and Germany of that same year, we saw it multiple times this year.

Some people just have the speed, but can't turn it on right away. Others have the speed but can't control it. It's really a matter of being efficient, you can be fast but not quite fast enough, but maintain pace better than someone that's pushing like crazy over the long run.

I see Alonso as fitting this category, he's fast, more importantly he's consistent, so despite him not being the outright fastest guy (machinery excluded I don't think he's the fastest guy in F1) he's always in the mix because...people make mistakes.

We saw this also from Button in Interlagos, he was probably the 5th fastest car, but because everyone around him was making mistakes he took the race. He just kept pace, staying out when others were pitting, he just hung back and let everyone take themselves out.

[jamsbong]

I like your explanation of hynotise mindset. Haha. Good one!

If i'm not wrong, cars do have different set up in the rain. I.e. a softer set up. So u will get more movement to warn u the car is gonna let go soon.

I dont know what is Button secret of success in those varying conditions like canada and brazil. If Bernie can do random rain on track, i think Button can easily be multiple champion. Hahaha.

Here is a question. Under dry comdition, u can almost memorise the track grip level. The simulator allows u to practise a lot. Does that mean weak drivers can practise until they are so sharp that they seem fast on ideal racing lines? Kimi is one of those drivers who dont do these because he is born fast.

[jamsbong]

Yep. Sometimes I think that is what happens to Grosjean. LOL. He probably spent a zillion hours on the sim and is all puffed up with confidence. Then on the first corner at the start of the REAL race, his mind is just not ready for so many cars blocking his ideal (and favourite) racing line.

BTW, Grosjean has secured 2013. So Lotus line-up remains the same.

[jdlive]

Yes. Prost makes it sound weird though - as if he never did seat of the pants feeling and was more about judging based on visual feedback. That's how I saw it, at least through his description of seeing the car moving and pitching. If my conclusion is correct - it could explain why Prost wasn't as good in the wet

Feeling a car moving around is all about gut instinct.

Exactly, driving is something that has to be intuitive, there can't be any thoughts standing between you and the act. In a way a driver is trying to hypnotize himself, and it's easiest to do it when things are calm with no pressure. Once conditions change a driver has to adapt, in essence re-hypnotize himself, but you can't because thoughts start getting in the way of driving. You start questioning how much slip angle you can give the tires, how hard can you break into the next corner. Some drivers don't care they have so much faith and confidence in their abilities that thoughts never cross their minds. You could see it in Spa 2008, you could see it in Canada 2011, and Hungary, and Germany of that same year, we saw it multiple times this year.

Some people just have the speed, but can't turn it on right away. Others have the speed but can't control it. It's really a matter of being efficient, you can be fast but not quite fast enough, but maintain pace better than someone that's pushing like crazy over the long run.

I see Alonso as fitting this category, he's fast, more importantly he's consistent, so despite him not being the outright fastest guy (machinery excluded I don't think he's the fastest guy in F1) he's always in the mix because...people make mistakes.

We saw this also from Button in Interlagos, he was probably the 5th fastest car, but because everyone around him was making mistakes he took the race. He just kept pace, staying out when others were pitting, he just hung back and let everyone take themselves out.

One of the best posts I've read on here.

[jdlive]

One thing was recently caught my attention was a comment of Alain Prost about a RedBull car he drove -- he said it is very stiff.

Did he meant the ride being stiff or the chassis being stiff? Having a stiff chassis means you can turn more sharply even with soft suspension. Road cars like Zonda actually have a soft-like set up but turns in beautifully without aftermath reaction. The stiff chassis allows such behaviour.

Regarding driving style:
I remember Martin Brundle always say the tail happy style is the fastest but requires more concentration and confidence with the car.

Even a driver prefers a sharp pointy car, he does not want a badly loose tail. Just the front is slightly stickier than the rear. Vettel choose that aggressive corner out to maximise the blown exhaust. Webber can't get his head around such style. So like Button, he also end up depending on car set up to make the car suit the track so that the car drives itself fast.

Remember back in 2010 and 2011, Vettel only had one lap on quali to save the engine usage, he made it count. Also in Abu Dhabi 2012, he was driving a car with completely new set up for the race and he end up standing next to Alonso after starting from Last place twice on a dry track.

Of course, he still needs to set up the car to ensure he has the chance to challenge others. But my point is that the car set up does not have to be pin-point accurate to the track, temperature, etcs.

So why is Alonso so impressive this year driving a slow car? His car is actually competitive in race trim and has one of the strongest starting capability. I think Ferrari must have learnt a secret or two about starting the car with Pirelli tires. he is fast enough during the race. But most importantly, Alonso barely made any significant mistake. Ferrari and Alonso has been absolutely immaculate in terms of reliability and being error-free. That got him just 3 points off Vettel in the end.
It is similar to Kimi vs Alonso in 2005, the mistakes and horrible reliability cost Kimi. Kimi always have the speed, but Alonso could bring it home every day.

Another spot on post. There is hope for this forum still

[jdlive]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USXuPj9Z6k8[/youtube]

This is a nice comparison, one thing that caught my eye is that Vettel frequently using more track on the exit, sometimes going "past" the curbs.

Another important point is the second to last corner, Hamilton guides the car in, Vettel does an agressive flick that causes a bit of oversteer, corrects even before getting to the apex and picks up the throttle HARD.

I have to say, people always talk about Hamilton when talking about an aggressive driving style in current F1, but Hamilton's is (a lot) smoother than Vettel's. Noticeable in this onboard and in basically every other onboard I've seen of both of them.

[jdlive]

What do you mean by backwards?

You make it look like slow steering rack is a mean to compensate for his agression, a sort of compromise. I look at it as a way for him to get what he wants. And same goes for every other driver's preference.

A smooth driver does not need lots of lock because their hands won´t be all over the place.
The problem is you will have a more sensitive car when turning so you need to be a sensitive driver in terms of turning the wheel.

Alonso IS smooth. His inputs may look agressive or abrupt, but he is smooth in terms of economy.

Definitely a smooth driver indeed. Clearly noticeable on the last few onboards that are available of him. Just goes to show how little people that consider themselves knowledgeable, really know.

[jdlive]

You make it look like slow steering rack is a mean to compensate for his agression, a sort of compromise.

Exactly.

And I don't think so. This is a product of his feel for the car, not a compromise.
I believe he prefers to dial precisely as much steering angle as tyres would handle, while Vettel would sort of seek the optimum. Look at onboards -- Vettel is a lot more fiddley with his steering, while Alonso usually have a lower input frequency.

100% spot on, I'm getting high of the level of factual correctness I'm seeing here today. Not what I'm used to here. Why can't you post more? Do it for me please

[jdlive]

I don't think the Renault steering aggressiveness is a good barometer to judge the current Alonso. Alonso certainly is one of the more interesting case studies in adaptability. If you look at his onboards from 2003, he's seemingly changed every year.

Taking a look at his onboards year on year, let's pay attention to the steering:

...

My point is - while Alonso was certainly aggressive on the wheel with his Renault, I'm not sure that it may necessarily be the case with his current year.

I see your point, but even in the beginning (1st video), he had what I would put into the smooth driving style category. Messy smooth, but still smooth. I assume he had to quit being so messy with his steering later on, because the tyres couldn't take it anymore?

It looked very tyre unfriendly in the 1st video.

[raymondu999]

The rate of turn-in was definitely not smooth there.

[timbo]

The rate of turn-in was definitely not smooth there.

Well, it IS smooth if the tyre can handle it, and if you don't mess much after you've taken the angle (not taking many stabs). There was something very particular going with that front Michelin tyres. There was a feature on formula1.com on suspension differences between Ferrari 248F1 and Renault R26. It said that Michelins had much softer sidewalls than Bridgestones. It was also reported that Renault had very rearwards weight-distribution. So, I would guess that front Michelins were not working very good at combined loads, and the rear-end would have a tendency to slide in the corner. That consequently would force the driver to brake at a straighter line and make most of the rotation in between braking and throttling.
On the next vid you can see that Alonso makes his "stab" after he goes off the brakes and just as he picks up a throttle.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-f1Y2l1qmUY[/youtube]

[jamsbong]

I think in terms of smoothness, all drivers can do it. But some drivers can be aggressive too. The vettel and hamilton comparison video is a quali lap. They have to be as fast and thus aggressive as possible without overdoing it.

One thing ive noticed is that Vettel steering always have a large amount feedback. Thats why his steering always looks giggly. Where as team mate Webber has smoother movement because there is less feedback (or kickback from rough road surface in this case).
I can only guess that this helps him with info on the front tire load so he knows how close the front limit is coming to.

Hamilton. Schumacher, kimi all have more subtle feedback but i'm sure they are equally as sensitive to the car's behaviour.

Another note about Vettel is how he utilise the blown exhaust. He almost always hammered the throttle earlier than Hamilton and wait for the blown exhaust to work things out at the rear. Hehehe....

[flmkane]

Have you considered that Vettel got on the throttle earlier than Hamilton, simply because Vettel had more downforce?

[jamsbong]

Have you considered that Vettel got on the throttle earlier than Hamilton, simply because Vettel had more downforce?

That's what I meant.

He only gets 'more downforce' by flooring the throttle. The additional downforce is not there otherwise. You can clearly hear the engine rev that the wheels are slipping.
A good example of how Vettel adopt his driving style for the blown exhaust.

[jdlive]

The rate of turn-in was definitely not smooth there.

It definitely is, I like you and your posts but I can't agree here, sorry man.