Design for over or under steer?

[Javert]

2008 to 2011 cars were designed according to Ham's needs which seems to include a non-indifferent part of oversteer

Altough Ham's arguably greatest seasons (2007 and 2012) have been driven understeerly (in 2007 due to Alonso and 2012 due to tires)

So we can say that in understeery cars Ham simply performs better?

[PlatinumZealot]

He performs to get the most out of the car. He can drive under-steer if he has to.
I think 2010 was a good season for him driving wise.

The cars were not designed to his needs. There is no basis to design a car after him. I think Newey confirmed that this year when Vettel was reluctant to change to the new configuration which Vettel soon got used to after a few races.
The team just build the fastest car as neutral as they can. Making the car to the driver liking is down to the setup. Which was actually very similar between Hamilton and Button.

It was said by Paddy Lowe that a car that has the capability to give over steer can have good traction out of a wider range of turns than an under steer car. Hence more than likely Hamilton just likes a car that operates in a wide range of turns. If he doesn't need maximum grip levels at every turn - in order to save tyres - I guess he would have driven with the setup towards under-steer.

[raymondu999]

Paddy Lowe didn't say it gave better traction - he just said it widened the operating window of the driver. Because balance changes by the corner, you will have some where the car is more stable, and some where the rear is "happier." If the driver can handle the oversteery parts, he can drive the lap on the best laptime compromise. If he can't, they have to introduce understeer to tame the rear, which would slow the car down in other parts.

Javert - that is an absolutely fascinating correlation you have picked up on. I wonder if Hamilton actually has a preference for oversteer, but then actually is quicker with understeer. It's a fascinating scenario indeed.

[Neno]

2008 to 2011 cars were designed according to Ham's needs which seems to include a non-indifferent part of oversteer

Altough Ham's arguably greatest seasons (2007 and 2012) have been driven understeerly (in 2007 due to Alonso and 2012 due to tires)

So we can say that in understeery cars Ham simply performs better?

Hamilton doesn't need car designed around him. his best season was his rookie season, in completly neutral/unknown car.
he already prove him self he can drive all kind of cars, even crap cars like 2009.
even Alonso and Vettel can't do that.

Mercedes will probably make crap car like last few years given their budget, but Hamilton will make few podiums even in that kind of car. Understeer, oversteer doesn't matter to him, i never see from Hamilton to saying my car oversteering like Button usually do, i dont have grip and this kind of things. He will get most of out car in given moment, for him everything depends on setup.

[raymondu999]

Here's what Paddy Lowe said in specific (referenced in my post and n_smikle's)

He's tremendously good at controlling a car in oversteer. We saw that from the first moment he got in our car. We saw the data, and on every entry we could see there was a massive correction on the steering, and our normal drivers would have been bitching like hell that the car was undriveable, yet he didn't even pass comment. So with a driver like that, you're better equipped to push the boundaries to new levels. Speaking generically of that characteristic, a lot of the performance limit of a car is set by stability; if you can't hang on to it, you will have to introduce understeer in that zone. But if you have a driver better able to deal with oversteer in those zones that induce it, then you will have a less-understeery car elsewhere and therefore more total grip over the lap. The great drivers over the years - Senna, Schumacher, Mansell - have all had that ability. Like for like compared to other drivers, they want more front end.

he already prove him self he can drive all kind of cars, even crap cars like 2009.

The point is there is no single "crap" car. Some are crap because of inconsistencies in balance, some due to massive understeer, massive oversteer, because they can't the tyres working, whatever.

i never see from Hamilton to saying my car oversteering like Button usually do, i dont have grip and this kind of things.

That's the point. If you can't drive around it, inevitably you have to let others know, sso they can help you find a solution. But if you have chronic imbalance and you're still happy anyways, it's just normal to you and you won't care either way, and thus not need to complain.

[Neno]

he already prove him self he can drive all kind of cars, even crap cars like 2009.

The point is there is no single "crap" car. Some are crap because of inconsistencies in balance, some due to massive understeer, massive oversteer, because they can't the tyres working, whatever.

Because good F1 car should be stable, fast and consistent. If car doesn't fit these conditions it's a bad car. You have two bad type of cars: bad cars who are made in that way because they don't have financial support for going faster, and crap cars who are bad cars but team have tons of money for making it to get better but when developing it he is not going faster, but slower.

[bill shoe]

Hamilton's first Monaco weekend in an F1 car was telling. He was doing beautiful and controlled 4-wheel drifts all the way through every slow corner. Outqualified Alonso after fuel-weight adjustment (the great excuse, I know). Everyone else was passively guiding their car between the walls. Hamilton was the only one who was actively driving the yaw. He is great in anything, but I think he is fully unlocked in a car that allows yaw driving. This driveability is not the same thing as a lack of understeer or oversteer, but all else being equal a yaw driver prefers neutral-ish.

[Absolutelee]

I remember in another thread someone (I don't remember who sorry) suggesting an interesting idea. The idea was that Hamilton's ability to drive around problems, and make the best of a problematic car, means that these problems don't get relayed to the engineers and therefore never get fixed/addressed. This theory, to me anyway, suggests that Button is an ideal teammate for Hamilton because his INability to drive around problems means the engineers have a good stream of info from Button to improve the issues they didn't even know Lewis had.

I hope I relayed that theory adequately

[ringo]

I don't really buy that theory.
I feel he senses the problems with a car just the same, but maybe doesn't waste time on one little aspect when he can look to improve the lap elsewhere on the car.
This is why his setups more than usually happen to be quite good compared to Button's.
He does get it wrong most times when it comes to choosing new parts, and this is the only time driving anything , leaving him at a blue pill or red pill situation.

I agree with neutral as his preference. Maybe so neutral it feels nervous to some other drivers. There are times when the car is both under and oversteering, i remember brazil 2010 was it? when hulk got pole position. That qualifying session, the car was behaving weird, i remember button saying the car was "on the nose", and before he said the opposite.
In truth the car was bad, but i feel it may have been too neutral, to the point the changes in the surface, wet, dry made it so.
Hamilton is probably more confident in the limits i guess.

[raymondu999]

I remember in another thread someone (I don't remember who sorry) suggesting an interesting idea. The idea was that Hamilton's ability to drive around problems, and make the best of a problematic car, means that these problems don't get relayed to the engineers and therefore never get fixed/addressed. This theory, to me anyway, suggests that Button is an ideal teammate for Hamilton because his INability to drive around problems means the engineers have a good stream of info from Button to improve the issues they didn't even know Lewis had.

I hope I relayed that theory adequately

I was one of the ones saying this. If you're driving around problems instinctively, it goes past your conscious and you just do it on stimuli and reflex. Given how naturally Hamilton seems to handle oversteer, I think a case can be argued that he's quite instinctive in his corrective reactions.

That way - he doesn't realize what's happening. For example, if the car rear is nervous on entry, he might just reflect on it and think that it had a responsive turn-in rather than any rear nervousness.

he already prove him self he can drive all kind of cars, even crap cars like 2009.

The point is there is no single "crap" car. Some are crap because of inconsistencies in balance, some due to massive understeer, massive oversteer, because they can't the tyres working, whatever.

Yes it is. Everything you say, i call crap.

You have missed my point yet again. Those cars are, in conversational english, crap. No arguments there. But the ability to drive an oversteering piece of crap is not the same as the ability to drive an understeering piece of crap. Nor is it the same as the ability to drive a car with crap traction/braking.

[Javert]

Hmmm ... I think that an oversteery setup potentially gives you faster lap time (less time spent steering, more linear trajectories) but with less grip during middle corner and corner exit. And would have killed 2012 Pirelli ...

An understeery setup means visibly worse trajectories, but you have greater grip during cornering and so you can carry more speed (Vettel's liking) and you can have better acceleration out of corner (Hamilton needs).

I think in particular Hamilton can exploit understeery setup, taking potentially a better lap time than a oversteery setup.
His advantage over the field this year have been phenomenal, remember Hungary, Singapore and Abu Dhabi poles.

Yes ... maybe in 2009-2010 with DD and in 2011 with EBD you have enough rear df & grip to make the oversteer convenient also for L. Hamilton, but I wonder ...

I hope it's not like if McL went in these years with a higher nose and more rear df than front, he would be like pentachampion ..

[Jersey Tom]

Hmmm ... I think that an oversteery setup potentially gives you faster lap time

I can't agree with this assessment. Just because a driver can hang onto a car that's sliding all over the place doesn't mean it will be fast. I'd go so far as to say that's quite the opposite. Nor do I agree that a "free" or "O/S" car gives you better trajectory or anything like that.

Really what you probably see Hamilton driving is an extremely neutral car. IMO a very neutral car will appear to be a bit on the free side to the driver as there is no extra "comfort" or stability crutched in. It's knife edge.

In any event I think it's silly (a) to use a binary attribute to describe a car's handling [i.e. "this car is oversteer" or "this car is understeer"]. A car can be O/S in low speed corners and U/S on throttle in high speed corners. Can be a little O/S with some brake application and then U/S at limit braking. Vehicle balance is a map over a range of all sorts of conditions, rather than just a one-or-the-other attribute. Not to mention that (b) some would argue that U/S and O/S are somewhat vague and non-descriptive terms.

In any event, one thing is for certain - LH has a tendency of braking aggressively deep and locking inside front tires. That I would say is quite clearly limit plow / understeer.

[turbof1]

Hamilton doesn't necessarily likes an oversteer car more then an understeer car; he only shows he is perfectly able to handle one. If we compare laps between Vettel and Hamilton, you'll notice Hamilton always makes much more steering corrections then Vettel. Hamilton is that good at correcting that he barely looses time with it. He can exactly predict what the car is going to do in every corner.

Just to show that: take a look at his australian gp pole lap.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtGcIGOj7MA[/youtube]
He took most corners very simple: brake before turning in. But then notice how he takes turn 11: he only starts braking while turning, starting the turn at high speed. He very remarkably keeps it totally under control. I think many persons would have slid off the circuit trying the same. Also notice that he perfectly times the release of his brake, right at the apex of the corner.

[PlatinumZealot]

I think Korea 2012 was a show of how he handles the changes from undeerteer to oversteer to crap balance very well. You could see the car shuddering through the corners. I wish I had a video.

[Javert]

I think Korea 2012 was a show of how he handles the changes from undeerteer to oversteer to crap balance very well. You could see the car shuddering through the corners. I wish I had a video.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZ19FOoAaZ8[/youtube]