McLaren MP4-28 (pre-launch speculation)

[asdf]

To all of the people who are saying "should replace x with y and keep z the same", you are failing to realise that the car has to work as a package. You can't just pick and choose parts and expect to magically find another 5 tenths.

Let's use vortex generators as an example. Vortex generators create drag by themselves, but can reduce drag as part of the package.

TBH, Aero is pretty much a black art. Most can get a rough idea, but few really understand it.

[k.ko100v]

"asdf" You can't just pick and choose parts and expect to magically find another 5 tenths.

You are trying to say, that teams didn`t take ideas from rival cars, and they didnt developed it to their cars?
Ofcourse it is a package, and that is why, the developing proces needs time to fit the idea to their package, but when the idea brings big benefits, then they change the package(if needs).

[ell66]

Hi all.

I will give more a prediction, than a speculation, about the "28"

IMO, the "28" will be the best car, out of the box and will tell you, why.

I think, it will be their first car build on the limits of the technical regulations since 2009.
For sure, the nose will be high. Earlier in the 2012, they said, that the 28 will be with pull rod, so maybe they have researched the system and they will try it.
Probably, the fron wing of the car launch, will be the USA spec, but after the tests, will be much diferent (most because of the nose and the pull rod). The vanes under the nose will be diferent for sure.
The exhausts. Probably it will be ramp with tunnels. The ramp seems like more complicated system, wich has more field for development and i believe the MTC has the potencial to accept that challenge. If this happend, then there will be different sidepods, rear wing and different diffuser.

With this upgrades they must reach the RB`s levels of downforce and the better top speed the McLarens have, will give him big advantige to the Bulls (who will suffer the most, after the qually DRS ban)

So, the nose, the front susspenion, the exhausts, will changes the whole concept of the car. I predrict a revolution more than evolution.
!

That last statement showed you really dont have a clue what your talking about.
As for the rest, pure speculation nobody knows what the team has planned.

[CottrellGP]

Hi all.

I will give more a prediction, than a speculation, about the "28"

IMO, the "28" will be the best car, out of the box and will tell you, why.

I think, it will be their first car build on the limits of the technical regulations since 2009.
For sure, the nose will be high. Earlier in the 2012, they said, that the 28 will be with pull rod, so maybe they have researched the system and they will try it.
Probably, the fron wing of the car launch, will be the USA spec, but after the tests, will be much diferent (most because of the nose and the pull rod). The vanes under the nose will be diferent for sure.
The exhausts. Probably it will be ramp with tunnels. The ramp seems like more complicated system, wich has more field for development and i believe the MTC has the potencial to accept that challenge. If this happend, then there will be different sidepods, rear wing and different diffuser.

With this upgrades they must reach the RB`s levels of downforce and the better top speed the McLarens have, will give him big advantige to the Bulls (who will suffer the most, after the qually DRS ban)

So, the nose, the front susspenion, the exhausts, will changes the whole concept of the car. I predrict a revolution more than evolution.
!

That last statement showed you really dont have a clue what your talking about.
As for the rest, pure speculation nobody knows what the team has planned.

You say McLaren will have a better speed advantage, no one knows how RB will gear the cars next season, you don't know what systems there going to have on there car that will boost speed advantage, so i think we should just wait and see, also i have not seen McLaren copying a RB design before, its normal Mercedes that copy or Ferrari so im unsure if they will use the Ramp anyway lets see what it looks like in a month or so...

[Javert]

You say McLaren will have a better speed advantage, no one knows how RB will gear the cars next season, you don't know what systems there going to have on there car that will boost speed advantage, so i think we should just wait and see, also i have not seen McLaren copying a RB design before, its normal Mercedes that copy or Ferrari so im unsure if they will use the Ramp anyway lets see what it looks like in a month or so...

Cannot just think RB as kings of straights
Newey has downforce in his mind, while Ferrari & McLaren are usually a compromise between df & speed

[CottrellGP]

You say McLaren will have a better speed advantage, no one knows how RB will gear the cars next season, you don't know what systems there going to have on there car that will boost speed advantage, so i think we should just wait and see, also i have not seen McLaren copying a RB design before, its normal Mercedes that copy or Ferrari so im unsure if they will use the Ramp anyway lets see what it looks like in a month or so...

Cannot just think RB as kings of straights
Newey has downforce in his mind, while Ferrari & McLaren are usually a compromise between df & speed

I cannot either, i was impressed with the speeds Vettel was getting in the Abu Dhabi race, not sure what they were like compared to the McLaren or Ferrari

[mclaren_mircea]

In Abu-Dhaby Vettel after finished third in Q3 was pushed at the back of the grid because he did not have enough fuel. So, as they had nothing to lose, the team operated some changes on Vettel's car. TStarting from the pit-lan could not attract another penalty so they made substantial changes to Vettel's car full-optisimating it for race-rhytm. Changes to the gearbox, changes to all the set-up of the car to boost straigt-line speed and overtaking. That's why Vettel was so fast on the straight during the race. If he would started from third with the qualyfing set-up he would not have such speed on the straight.

[turbof1]

If we exclude the tyres for a moment, will this car be back on levels with the mp4-25 and -26?

[CottrellGP]

In Abu-Dhaby Vettel after finished third in Q3 was pushed at the back of the grid because he did not have enough fuel. So, as they had nothing to lose, the team operated some changes on Vettel's car. TStarting from the pit-lan could not attract another penalty so they made substantial changes to Vettel's car full-optisimating it for race-rhytm. Changes to the gearbox, changes to all the set-up of the car to boost straigt-line speed and overtaking. That's why Vettel was so fast on the straight during the race. If he would started from third with the qualyfing set-up he would not have such speed on the straight.

Yea i know lol im a RBR fan

[Javert]

If we exclude the tyres for a moment, will this car be back on levels with the mp4-25 and -26?

High speed corners maybe they can get to 2011 speeds, but not to 2010 DDs
Low speed cornering not anywhere near 2011 df, maybe not even 2010

I would say they will get to 2009 double-decks downforce levels, so costantly 8 tenths behind 2010 cars

To 2011 cars: 0.6-0.7 seconds behind 2011 averagely; 0,2 seconds behind 2011 in high speed cornering circuits (Suzuka, India, Interlagos), 1.2 second behind 2011 in low speed cornering tracks (Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Corea (it contains high speed stuff, but focus is on low speed)).

[raymondu999]

If we exclude the tyres for a moment, will this car be back on levels with the mp4-25 and -26?

High speed corners maybe they can get to 2011 speeds, but not to 2010 DDs
Low speed cornering not anywhere near 2011 df, maybe not even 2010

I would say they will get to 2009 double-decks downforce levels, so costantly 8 tenths behind 2010 cars

To 2011 cars: 0.6-0.7 seconds behind 2011 averagely; 0,2 seconds behind 2011 in high speed cornering circuits (Suzuka, India, Interlagos), 1.2 second behind 2011 in low speed cornering tracks (Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Corea (it contains high speed stuff, but focus is on low speed)).

I think turbo is talking about pecking order, rather than laptime. I don't know what you're talking of though - IMO the 26 was a far better car than the 25, compared to its rivals. The 25 was generally 3rd quickest car, with occasions being the 2nd quickest. The 26 was 2nd quickest car, with occasions being the quickest.

[turbof1]

If we exclude the tyres for a moment, will this car be back on levels with the mp4-25 and -26?

High speed corners maybe they can get to 2011 speeds, but not to 2010 DDs
Low speed cornering not anywhere near 2011 df, maybe not even 2010

I would say they will get to 2009 double-decks downforce levels, so costantly 8 tenths behind 2010 cars

To 2011 cars: 0.6-0.7 seconds behind 2011 averagely; 0,2 seconds behind 2011 in high speed cornering circuits (Suzuka, India, Interlagos), 1.2 second behind 2011 in low speed cornering tracks (Singapore, Abu Dhabi, Corea (it contains high speed stuff, but focus is on low speed)).

I think turbo is talking about pecking order, rather than laptime. I don't know what you're talking of though - IMO the 26 was a far better car than the 25, compared to its rivals. The 25 was generally 3rd quickest car, with occasions being the 2nd quickest. The 26 was 2nd quickest car, with occasions being the quickest.

No he was right, I really mean on level as in generally same laptime and downforce, though laptime is difficult to compare due pirelli tyres being slower then 2010 bridgestones.

Surely the 2013 and even 2012 car's would beat an end-season 2009 car on same tyres anytime? Even with the DD's, 2009 car's are very primitive compared to the current ones.

[beelsebob]

No he was right, I really mean on level as in generally same laptime and downforce, though laptime is difficult to compare due pirelli tyres being slower then 2010 bridgestones.

Uhh, they're not... They're softer, grippier, and degrade more quickly because of it.

[turbof1]

No he was right, I really mean on level as in generally same laptime and downforce, though laptime is difficult to compare due pirelli tyres being slower then 2010 bridgestones.

Uhh, they're not... They're softer, grippier, and degrade more quickly because of it.

They degrade much quicker, but I don't think they provide more grip. Bridgestones had very advanced tyres. I readed somewhere an analysis by James Allen, where he described the bridgestones as "too perfect", saying they hugely developed their tyres back when the tyre war was at large, which gove highly scientific tyres. Pirelli never had such a tyre war, thus they don't have the technology bridgestone has. I also heard several comments from drivers that bridgestone tyres simply had more grip.

[raymondu999]

His article was about degradation, not pace. He was talking of how the 2010 Bridgestones were so good that they degraded at less a rate than the fuel went down, meaning faster times as the stint developed. Conversely, the Pirellis degraded more such that the degradation was greater than the loss of fuel, meaning worsening laptimes.

Remember that even after they took away the DDD, the 2011 cars could match a lot of the 2010 pole times. DRS and KERS comes in the mix, but you get the picture. Vettel in Melbourne 2010-2011 illustrates this well. Add DRS, switch to Pirelli, minus DDD, and he was still 4 tenths quicker than the Bridgestone-shod 2010 time. I'm talking of course of pole position.