Ferrari F138

[f300v10]

P.S. I am expecting Ferrari's exhaust configuration to change, as I do McLaren's.

Given there are only 3 pre-season tests this year, I doubt very much that any team will change more than wings on the cars between launch and Melbourne, especially Ferrari. With the correlation issues they have suffered in the last few seasons Ferrari cannot afford to run the car in a configuration with a layout that is significantly different than the one they plan to race. They will want to verify their tunnel numbers are valid as quickly as possible.

Why would you want to waste precious track testing time running a configuration that isn't representative? Given the continuity of the rules this season, I doubt very much that anyone has a 'magic bullet' idea that they want to keep secret until the last minute especially dealing with the exhaust. After a full 2012 season with each team trying to optimize the current exhaust rules, the two best approaches have been found (RedBull full ramp with under cut channel, or Mclaren partial ramp with traditional coke bottle). And given that both types are being used again this season, I doubt there is a big performance difference between the two or all the teams would have converged on the best one.

[amouzouris]

P.S. I am expecting Ferrari's exhaust configuration to change, as I do McLaren's.

Given there are only 3 pre-season tests this year, I doubt very much that any team will change more than wings on the cars between launch and Melbourne, especially Ferrari. With the correlation issues they have suffered in the last few seasons Ferrari cannot afford to run the car in a configuration with a layout that is significantly different than the one they plan to race. They will want to verify their tunnel numbers are valid as quickly as possible.

Why would you want to waste precious track testing time running a configuration that isn't representative? Given the continuity of the rules this season, I doubt very much that anyone has a 'magic bullet' idea that they want to keep secret until the last minute especially dealing with the exhaust. After a full 2012 season with each team trying to optimize the current exhaust rules, the two best approaches have been found (RedBull full ramp with under cut channel, or Mclaren partial ramp with traditional coke bottle). And given that both types are being used again this season, I doubt there is a big performance difference between the two or all the teams would have converged on the best one.

I never talked about a magic bullet...just because of correlation problems a team cannot not introduce updates and stay stationary...they are now working in the cologne wind-tunnel...we don't know if both configurations will be used this year..we have only seen launch cars..and it is only logicall both systems will be tested to find the best one...except Red Bull that have evolved their ramp a lot...and bringing in correlation problems if Ferrari still has them in the cologne wind tunnel...then they ought to test both configurations on the track to see which is best in real life..The team will know if they got the car they expected to get from the first 10 laps of running...after that it is either seting up the car (suspension, cooling etc and trying new parts) if they didn't get the car they expected...they will try to figure out whats wrong to try and fix it...that said no car can be exactly accurate to the CFD and WT tests so all teams run rakes to improve their tools...some get very close results..some very different...very different results is what ferrari has been getting for the last 2 years with the F2012 and the 150 italia...the F138 was mostly developed in the toyota WT...

[hairy_scotsman]

How much time they have gained over F2012?

0.437 sec

Asked this because I have the suspect they haven't gained enough time.
MP4-28, (MP4-27 was already 0.5s faster than F2012) they claim they have gained 1s

So even if they gained 0.7-0.8s with this concept, they are 0.7-0.8s behind,
so I fear not good enough to fight for the title.

Apart from a rear wing that I think will never been raced, I actually see nothing particular in this car
Pontones
Let's wait for Jerez and first times ...

Sigh.

When they qualify and race, then we'll know how they really stack up.

[amouzouris]

i don't disagree but taking a closer look at a splitter and the leading edge of the floor you will realise how MOST of the air is directed below the floor..the barge boards and front wing are mostly responsible for the airflow around the sidepods

I'm with @timbo on this. The air that gets to the upper side of the tray and to splitter is mostly directed to the sides and then to a significant degree around the sidepods. The tray and floor adjacent to it will prevent much of the spill to the underside of the sidepods

we are saying the same thing...the air just below the monocoque will be diverted around the sidepods..but most of the air will be diverted below the floor...take a closer look and you will see that the floor curles upwards to accept the flow and there are also triangular fins either side to induce a vortex and drive more air below the floor...

[timbo]

Given there are only 3 pre-season tests this year, I doubt very much that any team will change more than wings on the cars between launch and Melbourne, especially Ferrari. With the correlation issues they have suffered in the last few seasons Ferrari cannot afford to run the car in a configuration with a layout that is significantly different than the one they plan to race. They will want to verify their tunnel numbers are valid as quickly as possible.

Why would you want to waste precious track testing time running a configuration that isn't representative? Given the continuity of the rules this season, I doubt very much that anyone has a 'magic bullet' idea that they want to keep secret until the last minute especially dealing with the exhaust. After a full 2012 season with each team trying to optimize the current exhaust rules, the two best approaches have been found (RedBull full ramp with under cut channel, or Mclaren partial ramp with traditional coke bottle). And given that both types are being used again this season, I doubt there is a big performance difference between the two or all the teams would have converged on the best one.

They do have figures for the current config, and they would be able to confirm what they get. So it's not like running is useless, also there are still need in systems check, various mechanical components shakedown etc.
And as far as changes, the car will evolve over it's lifecycle, and there's a lead time on all the parts, so maybe they would want to test with what could be definitive package but they just don't have it in existence yet.

[jaba.hut]

Last year Ferrari issue was not only correlation between data from two tunnels but also personal who was interpreting and understanding data. When they realized that Maranello tunnel is a mess and all work was transfered to Toyota tunnel they couldn't make all updates to work 100%. Newcomers will hopefully improve situation.

[f300v10]

I never talked about a magic bullet...just because of correlation problems a team cannot not introduce updates and stay stationary...they are now working in the cologne wind-tunnel...we don't know if both configurations will be used this year..we have only seen launch cars..and it is only logicall both systems will be tested to find the best one...except Red Bull that have evolved their ramp a lot...and bringing in correlation problems if Ferrari still has them in the cologne wind tunnel...then they ought to test both configurations on the track to see which is best in real life..The team will know if they got the car they expected to get from the first 10 laps of running...after that it is either seting up the car (suspension, cooling etc and trying new parts) if they didn't get the car they expected...they will try to figure out whats wrong to try and fix it...that said no car can be exactly accurate to the CFD and WT tests so all teams run rakes to improve their tools...some get very close results..some very different...very different results is what ferrari has been getting for the last 2 years with the F2012 and the 150 italia...the F138 was mostly developed in the toyota WT...

If Ferrari didn't already do a thorough analysis on the RB exhaust layout prior to finalizing the initial design on the F138 then they are lost, which I don't believe is the case. They simply don't have the time to try both designs on the track at this point. You can't work on further development of the floor/diffuser/rear wing without the side pod/exhaust layout being known.

Look how long it took them to change the F21012 Acer ducts to the McLaren style exhaust last season. They new the original design didn't work after the first two or three days of testing, yet it took them to race 7 to properly fix it. It took 5 races just to get a reasonable interim design on the car. Three pre season tests is simply not enough time to trial two completely different exhaust layouts and get all the other work in the testing program done. Thankfully we only have a little over a month to find out which one of us is right.

As for the F138 I have a good feeling about this car, a feeling I didn't have on seeing the F2012 for the first time. They appear to have really cleaned up the coke bottle area with the revised rear suspension and thinner gearbox. Maybe for the first time since 2008 Ferrari can match the best cars in rear end downforce. Also if Pirelli has managed to make the tires easier to 'switch on' as they claim, qualifying pace should improve relative to Redbull and McLaren.

[munudeges]

Sigh.

When they qualify and race, then we'll know how they really stack up.

Wow.

[amouzouris]

I never talked about a magic bullet...just because of correlation problems a team cannot not introduce updates and stay stationary...they are now working in the cologne wind-tunnel...we don't know if both configurations will be used this year..we have only seen launch cars..and it is only logicall both systems will be tested to find the best one...except Red Bull that have evolved their ramp a lot...and bringing in correlation problems if Ferrari still has them in the cologne wind tunnel...then they ought to test both configurations on the track to see which is best in real life..The team will know if they got the car they expected to get from the first 10 laps of running...after that it is either seting up the car (suspension, cooling etc and trying new parts) if they didn't get the car they expected...they will try to figure out whats wrong to try and fix it...that said no car can be exactly accurate to the CFD and WT tests so all teams run rakes to improve their tools...some get very close results..some very different...very different results is what ferrari has been getting for the last 2 years with the F2012 and the 150 italia...the F138 was mostly developed in the toyota WT...

If Ferrari didn't already do a thorough analysis on the RB exhaust layout prior to finalizing the initial design on the F138 then they are lost, which I don't believe is the case. They simply don't have the time to try both designs on the track at this point. You can't work on further development of the floor/diffuser/rear wing without the side pod/exhaust layout being known.

Look how long it took them to change the F21012 Acer ducts to the McLaren style exhaust last season. They new the original design didn't work after the first two or three days of testing, yet it took them to race 7 to properly fix it. It took 5 races just to get a reasonable interim design on the car. Three pre season tests is simply not enough time to trial two completely different exhaust layouts and get all the other work in the testing program done. Thankfully we only have a little over a month to find out which one of us is right.

As for the F138 I have a good feeling about this car, a feeling I didn't have on seeing the F2012 for the first time. They appear to have really cleaned up the coke bottle area with the revised rear suspension and thinner gearbox. Maybe for the first time since 2008 Ferrari can match the best cars in rear end downforce. Also if Pirelli has managed to make the tires easier to 'switch on' as they claim, qualifying pace should improve relative to Redbull and McLaren.

Im not saying that they didn't test both configurations in both CFD and the WT....i'm just saying that they might want to test it on the track..and they have enough time to test anything they want! By the end of the first test they will have finished the basic rake tests, cooling tests etc...by the 2nd test they will have tested the different suspension setups, harder springs softer spring different anti-roll bars etc etc...on the third test teams will test their Melbourne spec cars (most of it at least)..it is very rare teams bring a lot of brand new parts to test them there...so they have the 3rd test to test all the new parts..and different exhaust configurations...

Regarding how long it took them last year to redesign their sidepod-exhaust configuration....given that they had about 2 and a half months to redesign, test and put to production not only the later semi-coanda exhaust but also the interim version that didn't blow the diffuser...they did remarkably well!

edit: to clear it up i am NOT saying that they will test a RedBull style exhaust ramp and tunnel or a completely new exhaust configuration..I am just saying that there is that possibility...

[hairy_scotsman]

Sigh.

When they qualify and race, then we'll know how they really stack up.

Wow.

Yeah. Exactly.

[Gilles 27]

Too much theory and speculation here about time gain.
We can only see the design of the singleseater, and imho looks more accurate and clean than the F2012.
Once time again the big deal would be, wich car works better with the tires.
We remember, the F2012 works well with the softer compounds and strugling with the harder ones.
So this year the hole Pirelli sortiment would be softer and because of this, they could run more times for win races.
But this is still theory.

[Pierce89]

Last year Ferrari issue was not only correlation between data from two tunnels but also personal who was interpreting and understanding data. When they realized that Maranello tunnel is a mess and all work was transfered to Toyota tunnel they couldn't make all updates to work 100%. Newcomers will hopefully improve situation.

No team has all updates work 100%. No type of simulation is perfect regardless of who is interpreting the results. Besides, designing an effective aero package is different from just interpreting wind tunnel or cfd results. Just because the team failed to design effective upgrades doesn't mean they misinterpreted the data. They are two different things.

[DAMNINice]

I think they used a trick Scarbs wrote about earlier...


They used the panel to create a higher Nose:



Very clever!

[flyboy2160]

.....
we are saying the same thing...the air just below the monocoque will be diverted around the sidepods..but most of the air will be diverted below the floor....

how do you know this is true? CFD? tunnel data? intuition?

i suspect that if you tried to divert most of the air under the monocoque nose under the floor, you'd have little downforce and the car would lift.

many times on this forum posters are claiming that 'more' air is desirable under the floor. this isn't true. downforce reduction is what the fia has achieved by raising the floors above the ground over the years with schemes such as reference planes and no-wear planks which allow more air under the car. the teams would like to run the floors and the splitter lower than what the fia wants - witness everyone crying about the red bull splitters running lower than everyone else and ferrari's 'flexible floor' a few years back.

the chapparal and brabham sucker cars tried to exclude as much air as possible from below the car and reduce the pressure there by 'evacuation.' since sliding skirts were banned long ago, teams are trying to 'aerodynamically seal' the sides of the floor and the diffuser to prevent air from getting under the floor.

if you think about it a little, you'll realize that more air under the car isn't what you want.

edit: as a thought experiment look at the chapparal and imagine that instead of the sucker fans pulling the air out from that sealed area under the car, the diffuser is doing the sucking. now if you raise the skirts and the nose dam to let more air in, the sucking down on the underside of the car isn't as strong.

[Raptor22]

I think they used a trick Scarbs wrote about earlier...


They used the panel to create a higher Nose:



Very clever!

I agree and saw that coming last year after the rules were published.