Driver styles/preferences

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gold333
gold333
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Red Schneider wrote:So Mr. Clear is basically saying that Schumacher used oversteer to help the car around the corner?

(Presumably we're talking slower corners here. I can't imagine trying to pull that off through the first sector at Suzuka.)
That's weird as there is a 1995 or 1996 autosport article that clearly analyses Schumacher to be an early turn in driver, they said a bucket of paint dripping from the back of his car would draw the shortest line around the circuit, like Mansell or Prost.

They said it was in contradiction to Hakkinen or Alesi who apparently are both oversteer drivers.
F1 car width now 2.0m (same as 1993-1997). Lets go crazy and bring the 2.2m cars back (<1992).

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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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There's another thread I started on these forums on a driving coach called Rob Wilson. Not sure if you've heard of him, but apparently he's rated by quite a few teams as very good. Rob preaches that you have to start the turn-in early, because the early transfer of weight "warns" the car, and will initiate the rear into a beautiful drift (which he points out by speaking of how with this early weight transfer - which he calls a "torque twist" - you can take the steering out and the car will still turn)

Perhaps in a counterintuitive way, the early turn-in promotes a change in the vehicle dynamics of the car, to initiate a slide at the rear?

Here's the thread, and pointing specifically towards the section on torque twists: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... 385139&f=1
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timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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gold333 wrote:
Red Schneider wrote:So Mr. Clear is basically saying that Schumacher used oversteer to help the car around the corner?

(Presumably we're talking slower corners here. I can't imagine trying to pull that off through the first sector at Suzuka.)
That's weird as there is a 1995 or 1996 autosport article that clearly analyses Schumacher to be an early turn in driver, they said a bucket of paint dripping from the back of his car would draw the shortest line around the circuit, like Mansell or Prost.

They said it was in contradiction to Hakkinen or Alesi who apparently are both oversteer drivers.
Read this http://8w.forix.com/mschumacher.html
He IS an oversteer driver. But he uses it differently than most over drivers. Usually late apex guys need oversteer to get fast turn-in, while Schumacher apparently used oversteer mid-corner to maximize change of direction at the apex.

gold333
gold333
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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timbo wrote:
gold333 wrote:
Red Schneider wrote:So Mr. Clear is basically saying that Schumacher used oversteer to help the car around the corner?

(Presumably we're talking slower corners here. I can't imagine trying to pull that off through the first sector at Suzuka.)
That's weird as there is a 1995 or 1996 autosport article that clearly analyses Schumacher to be an early turn in driver, they said a bucket of paint dripping from the back of his car would draw the shortest line around the circuit, like Mansell or Prost.

They said it was in contradiction to Hakkinen or Alesi who apparently are both oversteer drivers.
Read this http://8w.forix.com/mschumacher.html
He IS an oversteer driver. But he uses it differently than most over drivers. Usually late apex guys need oversteer to get fast turn-in, while Schumacher apparently used oversteer mid-corner to maximize change of direction at the apex.
I read it. It's odd I'm looking at Senna's book: Ayrton Senna's principles of race driving where he mentions a similar technique he uses for slow and medium speed corners of advancing the apex (to get on the power earlier) by drifting the car just before the apex (he calls it a "salvage" manouvre) using the steering and throttle, it's sounds exactly like what that guy describes.
F1 car width now 2.0m (same as 1993-1997). Lets go crazy and bring the 2.2m cars back (<1992).

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hollus
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Jenson Button wrote:...“I drive the way I drive – but I wouldn’t want to change it, as I think it’s actually the quickest way, so long as the car can be made to work that way. Rather than changing to a less-efficient driving style, and trying to fight to get tyre temperatures, it’s far better to design a car around my style. And that’s what we’ve tried with this car.”
[/quote]

That's quite appalling. An ideal driver (or apparently we know who, who and who, and I won't give names), tries to do that, and if the car cannot be dialed to work with his style, then adapts his stile to minimize the damages. Not even trying sounds lazy and explains his 2012 fade-outs.
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raymondu999
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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I think you've misinterpreted his comment, hollus. Obviously if he had no choice, he would probably try to adapt (Button's adaptive driving skills aren't the greatest, as we know - but he will at least try) but if given the choice at the start of the year, then he'd choose t go with a car suited to his style.

If anyone remembers a video I posted of Sir Jackie topless in Monaco explaining his driving style over a croissant at breakfast time - he also makes it sound as if the smooth driving style exploits vehicle dynamics better, rather than the style and line in itself being outright quicker (using words such as keeping the car as level as possible, keeping it at it's best attitude for roadholding etc)

Here's the video reposted:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bb1vr9shN7w[/youtube]
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Jersey Tom
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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hollus wrote:
Jenson Button wrote:...“I drive the way I drive – but I wouldn’t want to change it, as I think it’s actually the quickest way, so long as the car can be made to work that way. Rather than changing to a less-efficient driving style, and trying to fight to get tyre temperatures, it’s far better to design a car around my style. And that’s what we’ve tried with this car.”
That's quite appalling. An ideal driver (or apparently we know who, who and who, and I won't give names), tries to do that, and if the car cannot be dialed to work with his style, then adapts his stile to minimize the damages. Not even trying sounds lazy and explains his 2012 fade-outs.
I wouldn't be so quick to hate on the guy for it.

When you're engineering the car, it's quite frustrating or challenging trying to make and assess changes when the driver is changing their line and/or driving line every lap or outing.

There's something to be said for having a driver who does the same thing consistently on a lap, outing, or weekly basis.. getting a good understanding of it, and working with it. If the driver is going to dick around endlessly with how they drive, they better either (a) be incredibly good at it to where you don't have to touch the car, (b) the more likely scenario.. try some different things every so often if you're really stuck (or really suck :) ) but otherwise, be consistent.
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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Article by Andrea Stella about Alonso driving F12berlinetta with him as a passanger. Not too interesting if you are not a fan of Alonso, but contains a few bits about his driving
http://magazine.ferrari.com/blog/2013/0 ... =401305111

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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It's rare that we get very specific snippets of information, but if you were watching FP1, Vergne was just told by his engineer a while ago "Daniel is braking earlier for turn six but carrying more speed through the corner."

It's a very graphic illustration of Daniel using a more conventional racing line and Vergne going deeper for the late apex.
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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:It's rare that we get very specific snippets of information, but if you were watching FP1, Vergne was just told by his engineer a while ago "Daniel is braking earlier for turn six but carrying more speed through the corner."

It's a very graphic illustration of Daniel using a more conventional racing line and Vergne going deeper for the late apex.
Same thing was between Massa and Alonso in USA last year. IIRC it was about turn 1.

JimClarkFan
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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https://twitter.com/lewishamilton

Hamilton doing live chat on Twitter.... somebody ask him something, preferably about the car, the race etc...

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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timbo
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Interesting -- Hamilton and Vettel take 11/12 in 5th gear, while Alonso is in 6th. Different gearing? Sadly the image quality make it hard to notice revs and speed, and I'm not sure how accurate reading are.
Also, all three are very different in turn 14. Hamilton approaches it like a normal corner with a dab of brake, Vettel brakes lighter, but as he applies the throttle there's very gentle simultaneous brake application (perhaps to contain some oversteer?). Alonso just give it a lift of the throttle and doesn't use brakes at all.

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raymondu999
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Re: Driver styles/preferences

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Surely you mean T15? T14 is a 90-right corner which I can't imagine you not braking for. (13 is the slight kink in the road at the exit of 12)
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timbo
timbo
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Joined: 22 Oct 2007, 10:14

Re: Driver styles/preferences

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raymondu999 wrote:Surely you mean T15? T14 is a 90-right corner which I can't imagine you not braking for. (13 is the slight kink in the road at the exit of 12)
I used the numbering from wiki where the kink is not numbered, so yes, if you give number to that kink, it would be 15.