Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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wesley123 wrote:And why I think the snap understeer is mechanical, and not aerodynamical.
1. On corner exit, a car just simply doesnt out of a sudden loose rear df, certainly not with the exhaust blowing the diffuser.
2. if there was a lack of rear df it would be more noticable under braking since then there is less exhaust blowing, thus less rear df. Yet, there is a lack of front end balance under this condition.
3. Because they now (finally) have a decent EBD they see an improvement in rear df, thus a rear balance shift, making a sudden loss of rear end grip due to aerodynamics less likely.
4. It seems mechanical because of the way it is presented, like said, a sudden loss of rear df on corner exit doesnt seem that likely.

I must say I have less knowledge of suspension and tires, but I am confident the snap oversteer is caused my a mechanical problem, and not by aerodynamics.
The aerodynamic explanation for having understeer on entry and then oversteer on exit is simple – not enough.

On corner entry, you need the front tyres to bite to turn you in. It doesn't matter (that much) if the rear tyres are biting that well. So, an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the front) to bite better, and will help stop understeer.
On corner exit, you need the rear tyres to bite, and not spin up as you try to apply the power. It doesn't matter (that much) if the front tyres are biting that well. So an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the rear) to bite better, and will help stop oversteer.

It doesn't require a sudden loss of rear downforce to cause the sudden oversteer, or in fact any loss at all. Instead, all it takes is a sudden (or even fairly gradual) application of power to cause the rear tyres to go from biting to spinning, and your tail's on it's way round in a circle.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Raptor22 wrote:I think you may have it the other way around. The xhaust blowing could be having a big effect on the diffuser. When off throttle the diffuser could bbe choking, leading to rear end instability.
Except that you're off throttle on corner entry, not exit, so that would explain oversteer on entry, and understeer on exit, not the reverse.

Huntresa
Huntresa
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Joined: 03 Dec 2011, 11:33

Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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For those who doesnt read the aero forum, this seems intresting, http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... =6&t=14649

Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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beelsebob wrote: On corner entry, you need the front tyres to bite to turn you in. It doesn't matter (that much) if the rear tyres are biting that well. So, an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the front) to bite better, and will help stop understeer.
On corner exit, you need the rear tyres to bite, and not spin up as you try to apply the power. It doesn't matter (that much) if the front tyres are biting that well. So an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the rear) to bite better, and will help stop oversteer.
Sorry but you need both ends working equally to get the car to turn. If you turn in and the rear tyres don't "bite" as much as the fronts then you get turn-in oversteer. If, on exit, the fronts don't grip as much as the rears then you get power understeer.

Both ends need to work as well as each other. When drivers talk about finding balance they're looking for a car that is basically neutral so each end is working together. All drivers want neutral handling because that allows them to adjust the car using the steering and throttle to suit them. Whether they prefer to unsettle the rear on entry etc. (the driver is often said to like oversteer) is up to them. But any car that isn't capable of working both ends equally in any corner isn't balanced and isn't working and will cause the driver to be less confident and thus slower.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

Raptor22
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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beelsebob wrote:
Raptor22 wrote:I think you may have it the other way around. The xhaust blowing could be having a big effect on the diffuser. When off throttle the diffuser could bbe choking, leading to rear end instability.
Except that you're off throttle on corner entry, not exit, so that would explain oversteer on entry, and understeer on exit, not the reverse.

But the Merc is being descrivbed as having understeer on entry and oversteer on exit. That speaks to pitch sensitivity as well as some mechanical issues with the rear roll centre perhaps. They do run the rear awfully soft

beelsebob
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Just_a_fan wrote:
beelsebob wrote: On corner entry, you need the front tyres to bite to turn you in. It doesn't matter (that much) if the rear tyres are biting that well. So, an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the front) to bite better, and will help stop understeer.
On corner exit, you need the rear tyres to bite, and not spin up as you try to apply the power. It doesn't matter (that much) if the front tyres are biting that well. So an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the rear) to bite better, and will help stop oversteer.
Sorry but you need both ends working equally to get the car to turn.
Completely, factually, wrong.

Simple as that.

If you are turning left, the front right tyre is gripping more, and providing more of the turning force than any of the other tyres. Simple as that. Yes you need a balance, but to argue that at all times all tyres are working equally hard is, as I said, completely, factually, wrong.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Almost all the cars at the test were having under steer on entry. people are blowing this out of proportion..
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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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Testarossa2012 wrote:Hi, pals. I was in Jerez the last day of the test. They after Lewis crashed his car because of the brake fail.

These are some pictures I shot:


I hope you like them!
Yeah, they look professional. I am liking the front wing in this shot:

Image
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Just_a_fan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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beelsebob wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:
beelsebob wrote: On corner entry, you need the front tyres to bite to turn you in. It doesn't matter (that much) if the rear tyres are biting that well. So, an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the front) to bite better, and will help stop understeer.
On corner exit, you need the rear tyres to bite, and not spin up as you try to apply the power. It doesn't matter (that much) if the front tyres are biting that well. So an increase in overall downforce, and hence overall car grip will cause the tyres (including the rear) to bite better, and will help stop oversteer.
Sorry but you need both ends working equally to get the car to turn.
Completely, factually, wrong.

Simple as that.

If you are turning left, the front right tyre is gripping more, and providing more of the turning force than any of the other tyres. Simple as that. Yes you need a balance, but to argue that at all times all tyres are working equally hard is, as I said, completely, factually, wrong.
If you turn in and the rear doesn't grip then what happens? You spin.
If you are more fortunate than others, build a larger table not a taller fence.

beelsebob
beelsebob
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Joined: 23 Mar 2011, 15:49
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Just_a_fan wrote:
beelsebob wrote:
Just_a_fan wrote:Sorry but you need both ends working equally to get the car to turn.
Completely, factually, wrong.

Simple as that.

If you are turning left, the front right tyre is gripping more, and providing more of the turning force than any of the other tyres. Simple as that. Yes you need a balance, but to argue that at all times all tyres are working equally hard is, as I said, completely, factually, wrong.
If you turn in and the rear doesn't grip then what happens? You spin.
Sure, I never disputed that. What I disputed was the idea was that the rear had to grip at turn in as much as the front does.

At turn in, front grip is needed more than rear grip <- this statement does not exclude the idea that rear grip is needed at turn in.
At corner exit, rear grip is needed more than front grip <- this statement does not exclude the idea that front grip is needed on corner exit.

A car that is understeering on entry, and oversteering on exit like the Merc is doing, is a car that is not providing grip at the most loaded tyre at all times during the turn. This can be explained in a variety of ways. One of these is an overall lack of downforce, causing the most loaded tyre to not be loaded enough to grip enough.

Consider what would happen to a vaxhaul corsa, if you could somehow make it drive into a corner on an F1 circuit at racing speeds... Clearly it would understeer out, due to a simple lack of overall grip. Consider now what would happen if you somehow provided F1 levels of torque to it's rear wheels on corner exit – it would spin up the rear wheels and oversteer (or just plain spin), again, due to an overall lack of grip.

Jersey Tom
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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There are times when you can fix "snap" O/S on exit by just getting rid of entry U/S.
Grip is a four letter word. All opinions are my own and not those of current or previous employers.

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Ferraripilot
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Re: Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 Team 2013

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n smikle wrote:
Testarossa2012 wrote:Hi, pals. I was in Jerez the last day of the test. They after Lewis crashed his car because of the brake fail.

These are some pictures I shot:


I hope you like them!
Yeah, they look professional. I am liking the front wing in this shot:



Great shot. Very soft front end again I see.

I saw in another video that W04 3 wheeled coming out of one corner. Similar to a old 911.

Richard
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Posts about Gary's intelligence and Lauda saying Merc are top 3 have been moved to the team talk thread.

:arrow: http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... ead#unread

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dren
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Where will they find more DF on the W04? The refined sidepod exhaust outlets likely helped a bit at the rear.
Honda!

Richard
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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We don't know if the W04 has more or less DF compared to other cars unless someone has CFD vision. Also we've only had the first round of tests, so we don't even know how fast it is compared to other cars. We don't know if its tyres wear more than others. We'll need a few races before we know its relative performance, and even that'll be conjecture.