Design for over or under steer?

[jtc127]

I forgot to mention about the constant understeer that mp4-28 is having through the corners. Gary Anderson said that mp4-28 had more understeer than any other car that was present in Jerez.

I think understeer was a project target as (some of us debated that) last season proved how much Hamilton was good in understeer and this car was designed around him.
Perez also likes understeer and, in a minor way, Button, so no way to despair

I thought button was the one that needed understeer?

At any rate, the race engineers may set in a tad bit of understeer during the race to help both drivers keep the rear tires on the car.

[infy]

No one likes understeer or oversteer

Its a quest for balance.

[wesley123]

No one likes understeer or oversteer

Its a quest for balance.

They do, but it isnt in an extreme. Some drivers like a bit of a twitchy rear end, while others like a more gripping rear end, which will mean a preference of understeer and oversteer

[Nando]

When they talk about under/oversteer it´s the tendency, not actual under/oversteer.

If you understeer or understeer you are wasting time that could be spent going in the designated direction.

[N12ck]

yes, no driver likes to set up a car to have oversteer or understeer, but its if they would rather have one or the other which would they rather have to deal with, every driver wants a well balanced car

[ell66]

No one likes understeer or oversteer

Its a quest for balance.

They do, but it isnt in an extreme. Some drivers like a bit of a twitchy rear end, while others like a more gripping rear end, which will mean a preference of understeer and oversteer

Not they dont. Its always a quest for the perfect balance. It very rarely comes so the driver has to put up with certain characteristics the top guys can. Guys like button cant at all, hence why he performs so poorly so often.

[GrizzleBoy]

There is no such thing as perfect balance In the first place, given that every braking zone, corner and acceleration zone will have different demands on the car and its setup.

[ell66]

There is no such thing as perfect balance In the first place, given that every braking zone, corner and acceleration zone will have different demands on the car and its setup.

Obviously but thats not the point i'm trying to make.

[raymondu999]

I think a key point that's being forgotten is that everyone is looking not for *a* balance, but for *their* balance. They want something that works for them - not a universal constant that "works for everybody."

To this effect - while it's true no one wants a tail that is constantly trying to overtake the front, and no one wants a front so stubborn it needs plenty of coaxing to go into corners, but inevitably - there will be preferences. In case of not being able to find a balance, would you want to have a balance for some corners and understeer in other corners, or would you want a balance for some corners and oversteer in other corners through the lap?

[wesley123]

raymondu; what you just said is something I was trying to find words for. Indeed drivers try to find the best setup/car in which their car will stay in a straight line and perfectly balanced, but that is different from driver to driver as they have their preferences.

[raymondu999]

Yes. It's not really a question of ultimate balance - but when that balance is not achievable, what, to the driver, is the lesser of the two malhandling evils? Oversteer, or understeer?

[speedsense]

Yes. It's not really a question of ultimate balance - but when that balance is not achievable, what, to the driver, is the lesser of the two malhandling evils? Oversteer, or understeer?

Highly debatable question...oversteer loses laptime, understeer loses laptime. However consider an equal small amount of either one. Let's take a very fast corner, that is on the "brink" of being flat-out. A corner which is known that nobody has ever taken flat out. One driver has slight oversteer and pushes the car into this corner, the O/S increases (enough that the car loses speed) as he attempts flat out. The driver has one option to lower the oversteer in the middle of the corner, while at full throttle, that is let off the throttle, gently, and get the back of the car undercontrol (effectively slowing down). The other option is to correct it with steering (also losing time). Both options, means no flat out, and slowing the car, to bring it to neutral. The next lap, do you think this driver is going to push for flat out?
Same car, slight understeer. The driver in attempt of flat out, knows the car is going to understeer and if he pushes harder, it will understeer even more. His options are to rotate the car into neutral handling through steering or quick off and on of the throttle, or a combination of both and a confidence that he can push the car harder next time, maybe even into slight oversteer. Do you think this driver will push harder on the next lap ?
The level of confidence in the driver is higher, with U/S as he can neutralize the car with little loss of time as compared to O/S where the time spent getting the car back to neutral is far greater time loss.
Of the two evils, only one can be corrected by the driver efficently getting the car to neutral with less time loss, and that is U/S.
BTW, someone watching this U/S car on TV, might think it's oversteer tendency, as an efficent "correction" of U/S may happen so quickly that the driver can mask the deficiency even from the DATA.
Predicting how a driver likes his car to handle, from watching someone driving, is laughable to me. When the driver is so good at rotation and adaption, he can fool the unwary data analysis.
Who's to say Schumi didn't drive a slight understeering car all those years and is a master at rotation, so the rest of us mortals think the opposite?
IMHO

[Neno]

Re: Design for over or under steer?
Just make a bad car

[Lycoming]

I would argue that it's just a preference for failure mode. Obviously you want balance, but some drivers have a preference for which end goes first when you exceed the tire's limit, as you will inevitably do at times when pushing for the limit. Some prefer the front to wash out first, others the rear. You set the car as close as you can to a "balanced" setting (there's no such thing really as it can change corner to corner, lap to lap) and then you adjust it so that it's just slightly towards one end, just enough that it's consistent in it's behavior. That is to say, just enough that there is always a small oversteer or understeer moment at the limit, depending on which you desire. A "perfectly balanced" setup may very well vary between these two modes corner to corner; as you can imagine, though on paper it maximize performance, will not make for a happy driver, unless he's driving so slowly he can't feel the limit, in which case, you have other problems to address first.

I would also agree that if you design for one or the other, you're doing something wrong, because it should be adjustable, not something that is set in stone from day 1.

@speedsense; on paper in many ways, understeer is preferable, but i would argue that it is more down to driver preference; some settings/features which cause oversteer at the limit also give you very good turn-in, which some drivers prefer.

[raymondu999]

I would argue that it's just a preference for failure mode. Obviously you want balance, but some drivers have a preference for which end goes first when you exceed the tire's limit, as you will inevitably do at times when pushing for the limit. Some prefer the front to wash out first, others the rear.

Yes, that's what I'm getting at. In an ideal world you'd have your perfect balance, corner after corner. But we aren't living in a perfect world, and things often go booboo. When it does, which end do you want to lose out first?

The level of confidence in the driver is higher, with U/S as he can neutralize the car with little loss of time as compared to O/S where the time spent getting the car back to neutral is far greater time loss.

I disagree with this statement. IMO it will differ driver to driver, and there is no universal use case scenario where you will get a universal truth. While this may be true of your personal experience - it is most probably something that pertains to you, in the way that something different may pertain to someone else.