McLaren MP4-28 Mercedes

[astracrazy]

That's what happens when you have Button as your nº1 driver: He never finds grip or balance.

I don't think this issue in particular is one of Button's phantom "no balance" moments. IMO Button is talking more in terms of understanding the car technically. I could be wrong about this - but I think what Button means to say is that the car isn't responding to setup (and developmental) changes as they think it should..

surely it revolves around the same thing. Button can't set-up a car for love nor money, its well known he'll go in circles if the car isn't there from lap 1.

So how does that help mclaren who are trying to get feedback on car performance and new parts? he could send them totally down the wrong path

[Sevach]

Just been on the red bull thread, their car just seems to look so much less bulky than the 28. I don't know if it's just me but the 28 looks really bulky in plan view, the sidepods are wide and seem to go on forever where the red bull looks narrower, tighter and the sidepods shorter. May just be me but the mac looks cumbersome, what does everyone else think?

Simple difference in philosophy. Red Bull's is to clear the rear floor at all heights. McLaren's is that all the useful air comes round the bottom of the side pods, or over the top, so to move all the body work away from those two places, but not care about in between.

I'm sure they are different design philosophies but I don't quite understand your explanation. Surely, Red Bull also have more 'useful air' coming around the bottom of the side pods as they have more room there above the floor? Their sidepods leave open space on the floor the length of the sidepods and I'm not sure I see how Mclaren have moved any more body work away over the top of the sidepods either. I'm not an aerodynamicist and not really that well versed in the technicalities of it all but I can't see where Red Bull loses out to Mclaren in the two areas you speak off - ie air around the side of the sidepods and over the top and they seem to have cleared much more space at the back. I'm sure it is just different, it could be that the red bull has a higher centre of gravity as they've packed more components high on the centre line to make space at the side. There'll be loads we don't understand about why these cars work the way they do and I'm not saying Big is necessarily worse, it just strikes me that the Mclaren looks pretty bulky from plan view.

Over the last few years i never found the Mclarens to look particularly compact or tight (maybe something to do with Mercedes requirements), but they still manage an effective car.

[bonjon1979]

They most certainly do. I wonder if it's the engine size/shape as Merc and force india also have a similar look. Is the shape of the engine mandated or just the centre of gravity and weight.

[beelsebob]

I'm sure they are different design philosophies but I don't quite understand your explanation. Surely, Red Bull also have more 'useful air' coming around the bottom of the side pods as they have more room there above the floor? Their sidepods leave open space on the floor the length of the sidepods and I'm not sure I see how Mclaren have moved any more body work away over the top of the sidepods either. I'm not an aerodynamicist and not really that well versed in the technicalities of it all but I can't see where Red Bull loses out to Mclaren in the two areas you speak off - ie air around the side of the sidepods and over the top and they seem to have cleared much more space at the back. I'm sure it is just different, it could be that the red bull has a higher centre of gravity as they've packed more components high on the centre line to make space at the side. There'll be loads we don't understand about why these cars work the way they do and I'm not saying Big is necessarily worse, it just strikes me that the Mclaren looks pretty bulky from plan view.

I think your eye is deceiving you. I think if you got a tape measure out to the cars, you'd find that the McLaren is much tighter than the RedBull at floor level, but has a larger chunk of bodywork overhanging that tightness.

[Coefficient]

That's what happens when you have Button as your nº1 driver: He never finds grip or balance.

I don't think this issue in particular is one of Button's phantom "no balance" moments. IMO Button is talking more in terms of understanding the car technically. I could be wrong about this - but I think what Button means to say is that the car isn't responding to setup (and developmental) changes as they think it should..

surely it revolves around the same thing. Button can't set-up a car for love nor money, its well known he'll go in circles if the car isn't there from lap 1.

So how does that help mclaren who are trying to get feedback on car performance and new parts? he could send them totally down the wrong path

I doubt Button would be heading into his 14th season in F1 if he couldn't do setup. Its possible though that he spent so long trying to set up crap cars that he's overly sensitive to undesirable handling traits and tries to dial them out rather than drive round them if the car is quicker in a twitchier state. I think come Melbourne they will be right up there as usual, the odd gripe in testing is normal. Remember the 26 in pre season which propelled JB to 2nd in the WDC?

[ForMuLaOne]

deleted

[stefan_]

Barcelona Session 1 - Day 4 (22.02.2013)

[Sevach]

I think your eye is deceiving you. I think if you got a tape measure out to the cars, you'd find that the McLaren is much tighter than the RedBull at floor level, but has a larger chunk of bodywork overhanging that tightness.

Hard to say, the RedBull also looks chunkier than it should since the tunnels, the RB7 and launch RB8 had a shitload of floor space ahead of the diffuser.

I just think Mclaren focus on smooth progressive lines instead of making everything as small as possible (like Williams for example).

MP4-27 didn't scream look how my pods slope... rear end, undercut... you name it, but it had a smooth flow from one to another and was very effective with it.
The MP4-28 follows a similar concept imo.

[astracrazy]

I doubt Button would be heading into his 14th season in F1 if he couldn't do setup. Its possible though that he spent so long trying to set up crap cars that he's overly sensitive to undesirable handling traits and tries to dial them out rather than drive round them if the car is quicker in a twitchier state.

I think that's more correct than what i said. I think his inability to drive a car which isn't balance though still could cause problems in developing a car

[bonjon1979]

I'm sure they are different design philosophies but I don't quite understand your explanation. Surely, Red Bull also have more 'useful air' coming around the bottom of the side pods as they have more room there above the floor? Their sidepods leave open space on the floor the length of the sidepods and I'm not sure I see how Mclaren have moved any more body work away over the top of the sidepods either. I'm not an aerodynamicist and not really that well versed in the technicalities of it all but I can't see where Red Bull loses out to Mclaren in the two areas you speak off - ie air around the side of the sidepods and over the top and they seem to have cleared much more space at the back. I'm sure it is just different, it could be that the red bull has a higher centre of gravity as they've packed more components high on the centre line to make space at the side. There'll be loads we don't understand about why these cars work the way they do and I'm not saying Big is necessarily worse, it just strikes me that the Mclaren looks pretty bulky from plan view.

I think your eye is deceiving you. I think if you got a tape measure out to the cars, you'd find that the McLaren is much tighter than the RedBull at floor level, but has a larger chunk of bodywork overhanging that tightness.

You're probably right. I was referring specifically to the plan view of the car so it's probably very deceiving.

[stefan_]

Barcelona Session 1 - Day 4 (22.02.2013)

[mclaren_mircea]

I recognise that I'm very afraid about mp4-28! From what Button sayd it will be another year of defeat

[CjC]

I recognise that I'm very afraid about mp4-28! From what Button sayd it will be another year of defeat

Hell the season hasn't already started and you've kinda written it off? Yes the car doesn't look great at the moment, but you have to believe in the team and trust that there 'short term pain for long term gain' philosophy will work, in my own life I'm a believer in the same philosophy.

It's good to hear that the drivers do say it's fast and inconsistent, because that's better to work on rather than consistent and slow.

[mclaren_mircea]

I want to know and find something about Mclaren engineers? What do you know about Mclaren engineering team? We suppose that Paddy Lowe is leaving for Mercedes... Has Mclaren enough value in their internal structure? I read that they had enough young engineers, but nothing concrete. Where is Mclaren's engineering team comparet to others teams? (Except Paddy, Tim Goss or Oatley). I heard that Ferrari and Mercedes has to engineering teams for 2013-2014 cars, and Horner said that they have not the same resource for this type of approach. What do you think about Mclaren's approach? I know that they are very secretive, but do you think they have the resources? Thanks

[Coefficient]

I want to know and find something about Mclaren engineers? What do you know about Mclaren engineering team? We suppose that Paddy Lowe is leaving for Mercedes... Has Mclaren enough value in their internal structure? I read that they had enough young engineers, but nothing concrete. Where is Mclaren's engineering team comparet to others teams? (Except Paddy, Tim Goss or Oatley). I heard that Ferrari and Mercedes has to engineering teams for 2013-2014 cars, and Horner said that they have not the same resource for this type of approach. What do you think about Mclaren's approach? I know that they are very secretive, but do you think they have the resources? Thanks

Mclaren is an enormous organisation with real strength in depth. They are constantly grooming young engineers in all aspects of advanced technology at MTC which really is a state of the art facility which is constantly being improved and developed. Check out the place on the internet, its truly awesome!! Their projects vary from race cars to Mars Rovers, they pay the best wages and they attract the best names in the business! The ability to continually produce competitive F1 cars is a given with this team, the only doubts really surround trackside operations and drivers. The team are right there every year and when their new wind tunnel is finished they will improve again!