Contraversal!?!

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Global Warming

Unavoidable
16
30%
Imminant
8
15%
Exagerated
11
21%
Unlikely
0
No votes
We can stop it, work fast
12
23%
BS, no truth in it at all
6
11%
 
Total votes: 53

mcdenife
mcdenife
1
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Here in spain we're having a clear example this year, with very high temperatures, low precipitations and if it rains it's very strong in a short gap of time causing floods so what else people want?
and recognisable increase in yearly avg. temps.

Fine. The next question is; Is it normal, some kinda cycle perhaps? If its not normal, What, why, how? Thats what else people want. And the answer(s) is where it starts to get interesting (difficult) because absolutely nobody knows. Oh they postulate, pontificate, extrapolate, simulate, discuss, disagree, predict, simply guess.
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

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wazojugs
1
Joined: 31 Mar 2006, 18:53
Location: UK

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manchild wrote:I think people are not seeing things realistically - if one nuclear power plant in the middle of Europe would explode, but really explode throwing out all of its radiation it could make wasteland out of Europe. People seam to be forgetting that only small amount of nuclear material from Chernobyl went into atmosphere and it was enough to kill over 200.000 people. Imagine would would happen if explosion had blown away all radioactive material that is still laying active under concrete sarcophagus.
There safe just look at homer simpson for you role model of safety

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

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manchild wrote:Imagine would would happen if explosion had blown away all radioactive material that is still laying active under concrete sarcophagus.
...decaying concrete sarcophagus. Unless something serious is done about that, there will be a Chernobyl, Part II.

Nuclear power is not the answer.

I mean, I know that the chances for disaster are remote when you're talking about nuclear power. For what it is, it's relatively "safe." But all it takes is one mistake to create a monumental catastrophe. Even if the chances of that are one-in-a-billion, it's just not worth it when you consider that hundreds of thousands of people could conceivably be killed. That's not an alarmist reaction; it's a fact.

Beyond that, the wastes generated from nuclear facilities pose massive problems. Where do you store spent nuclear fuel that will remain radioactive for 200,000 years? And what if something happens to one of those dump sites?

Here in America, somebody got the bright idea of taking all the spent nuclear fuels this country generates and putting it all in one place, a sort of mega-dump for nuclear waste. They want to put this dump in Nevada, the fastest growing state in the union, and transport the waste by trains and trucks through nearly every state in the country.

What happens when a terrorist group decides they want to blow up that dump site or take over one of those trains or trucks because of something our --- president says or does? Or what if there's simply an accident? It could happen, and it would affect millions of people.

There's a nuclear power station some 20 miles away from New York City that's virtually unprotected from terrorist attack. You can park a boat less than 25 meters away from it. I don't have any faith in my government or others to sufficiently protect dump sites or power stations around the world. And I especially don't have faith in my government to not make any mistakes considering their handling of Iraq and Hurricane Katrina.

Like I said before, I know the chances of anything bad happening are remote. It's just that the consequences of something not operating perfectly or of someone making a mistake are far too great to make nuclear power a viable option.

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joseff
11
Joined: 24 Sep 2002, 11:53

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bhallg2k wrote:Beyond that, the wastes generated from nuclear facilities pose massive problems. Where do you store spent nuclear fuel that will remain radioactive for 200,000 years? And what if something happens to one of those dump sites?
You can reprocess the waste. Apparently this is not done in the USA somewhat, although I know the Russians do it. Again, the problem is economical (fresh uranium is just too cheap to bother reprocessing waste) and political (you get weapon-able Plutonium as a product)
bhallg2k wrote:Here in America, somebody got the bright idea of taking all the spent nuclear fuels this country generates and putting it all in one place, a sort of mega-dump for nuclear waste...
Reprocessing doesn't solve this, unfortunately, as the same waste material needs to be transported from the power plant to the reprocessing plant. Unless you build the two side-by-side, which is even more uneconomical.

I really don't buy the whole terrorist and nuclear plant/material thing, you know... it's like saying, "We shouldn't build tall buildings, so nobody can fly a plane into it." Hell no. When we let terrorists decide our flight plan and future energy source, they've already won.

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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Nuclear power is not the answer, I agree. But the politics about it took me to "rant village" :wink:. There you have:

Some people has started to think that the only clean option is atomic energy, even GreenPeace! As engineer, I do not like it. My optimal design is a paper clip: no instructions needed, no critical failure modes, self evident, necessary shapes. Nuclear plants are incredibly primitive: basically dangerous tea kettles. But I think that if somehow they could be used in a "normal" way and developed, they could be part of the answer. Complicated questions normally require a complicated answer, composed of many parts.

Anyway, nuclear power is one of the few options left (right now) when oil and gas are exhausted. That is the reasoning (on the iranian side) behind the current standoff with USA. They probably don't want to be dependent on developed countries for their future fuel (nor any poor country with uranium, like mine... ehem).

The moral issue here is a thorny one: the major contaminators of nuclear material in the world are France, Russia, China and USA that have been for ages happily exploding nuclear bombs many times the size of Chernobyl in such ecologically delicate places as the western american desert and Polinesia. Except for Godzilla movies :wink:, I haven't heard complaints of the citizens of these countries about the "ecological disaster". Probably is not close enough to them. But my blood boils when I heard people talking about the "horrors" of a chance of explossion, while their government explodes bombs in midair at a Pacific, pristine island.

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The american position is specially hard to understand: they have on their history the infamy of having exploded atomic bombs on people ("My God, what have we done?" Robert Lewis, copilot of Enola Gay) and they bragg about conventional bombs of extraordinary power. Why would you want a 10 ton conventional bomb to fight terrorism, escapes my understanding, specially when you declare: "...if they didn't give up, they'd be so frightened, they'd dig themselves in to the point where they'd no longer be effective combatants." Who is the terrorist there?

MOAB 10.000 kilos bomb (compare size with the truck in the background):
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The Balkans are contaminated with the shield-piercing uranium bullets NATO used there without any problem and the IDF disperse them happily in their neighborhood. Atomic bombs are evidently part of their world power and the reason why these countries keep their chairs at the United Nations Security Council, with vetos that have stalled any progress towards a real agreement of nations, basically dividing the world in "their backyards".

It is hard to understand also why would you be so offended about the possibility of producing non-weapon-graded uranium when you have over 6.000 nuclear missiles cocked and ready. The nuclear powers have not even condescended to say when they are going to get rid of nuclear weapons (they are obliged to that by the same treaty that clearly allows any country to do what Iran is trying to do: enrich uranium to produce energy).

When you think about the dangers of conventional chemical plants, the argument about nuclear plants being dangerous is hypocritical or naive. Remember the Indian tragedy at Bhopal? They "only" had 20.000 people dead: you are the ones talking about a billion to one chances... These plants explode for simple lack of maintenance: remember the recent explosion and fire at a BP plant in Texas? What about the corroded pipes in Alaska, the same year oil companies have record profits? Specially when the alternative we are talking about (global warming) is a possible tragedy of global proportions and an historic shame much worse than Hiroshima.

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Finally, most people don't focus on the ball. Do not move your eyes from it: the problem is NOT global warming, nor nuclear energy: is CO2 contamination, which is a proved thing. It is happening right now. We are not sure about its consequences, that's all, global warming could be one of them, or they could be worse. We will find out, rest assured. Anyway, there is little the developed countries (except USA) can do about it: the rest of the world wants to follow their industrial growing leadership: look at the figures for new CO2 pollution in the world in the next years:

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I quote for your entertaining: "Coal was again the world's fastest growing fuel and global consumption growth was twice the 10-year average. Growth was concentrated in China, the largest coal consumer, which accounts for 80% of global growth. Growth in USA was also relatively strong." Now, what?
Ciro

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joseff
11
Joined: 24 Sep 2002, 11:53

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Ciro Pabón wrote:...But my blood boils when I heard people talking about the "horrors" of a chance of explossion, while their government explodes bombs in midair at a Pacific, pristine island.
Thanks, that really needed to be said.
Ciro Pabón wrote:...Coal was again the world's fastest growing fuel and global consumption growth was twice the 10-year average. Growth was concentrated in China, the largest coal consumer...
Again quoted from my powerplant engineer friend: China not only consumes coal, but are manufacturing and selling coal-fired powerplants at (surprise, surprise) 70% to 80% less cost (turnkey) compared to their European counterparts.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03...

That's precisely why I don't trust the government with nuclear power.

It should also be said that if a country's government wants to build a nuclear arsenal and detonate them at will, they are going to do it, no matter what. 95% of the citizens in that country could be adamently against it, and the government won't even bat an eyelash while they press the button.

So no one's blood should boil over the actions of any government concerning nuclear weapons or technology. Those governments who do it are doing it because they can.

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Ciro Pabón
106
Joined: 11 May 2005, 00:31

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C'mon, bhallg2k: don't tell me you don't know how to make an atomic bomb. I understand Congressmen being ignorant, but you? :lol: (that's just a lame joke, pleeze). It is simplicity itself, if you believe the Journal of Irreproducible Results: a metal box, some klystrons, a shaped charge and uranium 238 or plutonium if available at your local Bomb Depot.

.......

Ferrari's front wing is much more harder to design. Atomic bombs should not be forbidden to third world countries, but terminally prohibited. Any country should be ashamed of having one.
Last edited by Ciro Pabón on 03 Nov 2006, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.
Ciro

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m3_lover
0
Joined: 26 Jan 2006, 07:29
Location: St.Catharines, Ontario, Canada

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I know in Iraq...they still used uranium coated bullets to pierce the armor plated cars and other hard metals
Simon: Nils? You can close in now. Nils?
John McClane: [on the guard's phone] Attention! Attention! Nils is dead! I repeat, Nils is dead, ----head. So's his pal, and those four guys from the East German All-Stars, your boys at the bank? They're gonna be a little late.
Simon: [on the phone] John... in the back of the truck you're driving, there's $13 billon dollars worth in gold bullion. I wonder would a deal be out of the question?
John McClane: [on the phone] Yeah, I got a deal for you. Come out from that rock you're hiding under, and I'll drive this truck up your ass.

bhall
bhall
244
Joined: 28 Feb 2006, 21:26

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Ciro Pabón wrote:Any country should be ashamed of having one.
I agree with that presently. But I do think nuclear weapons saved the world, so to speak, from the 1950s to the 1980s. There's no need for them now though.

Sadly, it's an endless cycle. As long as even one country has the bomb, other countries will always follow suit.

The good thing about all of this off-topic ranting is I think the notion of nuclear power being a viable option has been at least somewhat dispelled.

P.S. That how-to was funny as hell.

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Scuderia_Russ
0
Joined: 17 Jan 2004, 22:24
Location: Motorsport Valley, England.

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manchild wrote:Air traffic is something different. I remember reading one old analysis which said that one 747 pollutes as much as 1500 cars. Multiply flights per day with 1500 and compare that with number of cars in use AND, most important of all remember that airplanes don't have catalysts.
Wasn't there uproar in the U.S. after 9/11 because after all of the planes were grounded for a day, the overall temperature in the Americas rose by two degrees or something... because there was no thin layer of smog emitted by any aircraft? I seem to remember something about it.

As part of my college course I've just done a Powerpoint presentation on Regenerative braking and the role of hybrids in motorsport in general. I think motorsport in particular is going to struggle to justify itself as the years tick on, so expect manufacturers in F1 to platy a large part in hybrid technology and for technology to yet again start to transfer onto road vehicles again.
"Whether you think you can or can't, either way you are right."
-Henry Ford-

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
34
Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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I was born in 1950, and remember the different attitude and conditions back from my youth. Back then, oil was considered almost infinite, it would take many, many generations before it would be an issue. The word "ecology" was just that, a word in the dictionary that most had never heard. The ocean was considered big enough to swallow as much garbage as we dumped in it, and no one had serious concerns for the environment.
But changes have happened, that is a fact. The lake I used to fish in is now dead, no life in there anymore. The weather has become more extreme, with hotter and more brutal summers, and the storms seem more destructive. People may agree or disagree on how much has changed, and how harmful it has become. But one fact is certain, there have been changes.
And if we continue out present habits, things are going to get worse, mother earth will not heal herself from all the garbage and pollution.
But until the political will is strong enough, societies will not spend anough money and resources to fix the problems. Many fear the solution may be offered long after the patient has terminal cancer.

My personal vision is to build gigantic solar array farms in orbit, collect the electrical power, and beam it as microwave energy to ground grids, set in remote, uninhabited areas. Then the electrical power can be distributed on a global grid, to be distributed or converted for consumption. The sham eis that the technology is here today, it just needs refinement to work on such a grand scale. And of course, political will and lots and lots of money. Not going to happen as long as the oil companies have the politicians paid off.

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
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Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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I have lurked on this thread for a while, but I can't stand it any longer, I have to contribute... :wink:

There are numerous pseudo-facts and half facts (and some non-facts) here and, I think, a number of misconceptions.

Global warming is, first off, a theory... it isn't proven and this is the main issue behind which "W" and his mob are hiding. Climate change is a highly complex area, but there does appear to be a trend towards increasing global temperature (at least I am conviced about it!). Next question is what is causing it...? is it anthropogenic (man-made), or a natural phenomenon? and thirdly can anything be done about it? (I voted unavoidable btw).

A quick Google will tell you that the mass of the atmosphere is somewhere in the vicinity of 5x10^18 tonnes (although there are a few estimates which put it 3 orders of magnitude less). And the current composition is approx 0.04% CO2 (and increasing). However, it is hard to really imagine that anthropogenic sources of CO2 are the (ar even a) cause of climate change. If one consideres the atmosphere as a 100 yard american footie field the first 78 yards are nitrogen, the next 21 yards are oxygen, then we have 0.97 yards of argon, leaving about 3 inches of CO2. The amount of CO2 added by man since the start of the industrial revolution equates to approximately the width of a pencil line... not really a plausible cause of global warming huh? Let's be factual here!!

Don't get me wrong, even though I work for a nasty big oil company I think we need to do something about CO2, but it does need to be thought through. And if you want people to buy in to a solution it must be plausible and implementable. China and India are the people who need to be convinced, but they are saying that they aren't going to change until the USA does... so this is really a political and not a scientific issue.

Alternative energy sources are a key part of the future energy mix, but Solar only works when the sun is in the sky, so half the globe will always be without power from solar sources - and, as has already been spelled out, the solar panels don't come for free (environmentally that is). Wind, waves, hydro; lot's of energy there, but not always as clean as first thought (hydro for example typically emits bundles of methane for the first couple of decades as the vegetation in the flooded valleys decays). But they are low density power sources; good as base load, but no good when it's half time in the world cup final and everyone goes to put the kettle on. (jeez, gotta hope the wind starts to blow in 20 minutes!!)

Biofuels are great as a partial solution, but not a viable alternative unless we give up eating; just noyt enough arable land I'm afraid.

Hydrogen; great idea, gotta love it, but it's a difficult blighter to make, store and transport. At the moment hydrogen production = good way to waste fossil fuels.

Nuclear (fission) IS a viable, short-medium term solution and the technology is on the shelf. Lots of talk about the horrific consequences of accidents and it is a serious consideratio which I do not wish to trivialise, but let's have some facts; the total estimated death toll from Chernobyl is 5000 (WHO figures); that is certainly a lot, but in 20 years how many people died from finding, producing and consequences of using fossil fuels (PM10, or PM 2.5 anyone??) - no clue here, but my guess is far more than 5000. And Chernobyl was cold war soviet technology. ... oh, and don't forget that we can't just keep chucking CO2 into the atmos, if we manage to find and burn all the carbon in the ground the CO2 concentration in the atmos will be +/-3% - humans can't live in that! The way we work today is not sustainable.

Probably nuclear fusion is a good solution, but it'll be a while until that can be made to work.

Let's go nuclear, it is relatively clean, can be used safely and could also be used to burn up those nuclear warheads that are lying around (if you use the right sort of reactor). It's not THE answer, but it is AN answer which will at least reduce man's impact on the climate.

rant over... :lol:

(Mike stands back and waits for the fireworks!)
Mike

mcdenife
mcdenife
1
Joined: 05 Nov 2004, 13:21
Location: Timbuck2

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Mikey_s, you are not The M Crichton are you?
Long experience has taught me this about the status of mankind with regards to matters requiring thought. The less people know and understand about them, the more positively they attempt to argue concerning them; while on the other hand, to know and understand a multitude of things renders men cautious in passing judgement upon anything new. - Galileo..

The noblest of dogs is the hot dog. It feeds the hand that bites it.

Mikey_s
Mikey_s
8
Joined: 21 Dec 2005, 11:06

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mcdenife... if only I was ( I'd be out spending all my money!!)

... but I did think State of Fear was an excellent read and raised some extremely pertinent points about climate change. (you spotted the football field analogy then!).

However, this issue is one which is close to my heart for a number of reasons; 1. I work for an oil company (although they prefer to be called energy companies nowadays!) in th Health, Safety and Environmental area, 2. Notwithstanding #1 I do care for the environment on a personal basis, and 3. I happen to work in the office next door to a colleague whose job it is to discuss climate change with legislators in the European Commission on behalf of the oil and gas producers. As a consequence i make a point of knowing a little bit about the subject
Mike