Team: Bob Bell (TD), Aldo Costa (ED), Geoff Willis (Technology Director), Andrew Shovlin (CRE), Simon Cole (CTE), Ron Meadows (SD), Matthew Deane (CM), Ross Brawn (TP), Nick Fry (CEO), Toto Wolff (Exec Director), Andy Cowell (MD of powertrain),
Drivers: Nico Rosberg (9), Lewis Hamilton (10) Team name: Mercedes AMG Petronas
A place to discuss the characteristics of the cars in Formula One, both current as well as historical. Laptimes, driver worshipping and team chatter do not belong here.
Joie de vivre wrote:no i don't but, look it this way -> red bull uses strakes, mclaren uses strakes, ferrari uses strakes. and those teams were (and probably still are) better than merc
there has to be difference with endplates with and without strakes, obviously, so if we presume that non-strake endplate is better, why would top team run with strakes? The thing is, they haven't even try to test the version of endplate with strakes
but again, no, i don't have evidence
The problem with this is simple – you can't beat people simply by copying them. You have to go down your own path and find a solution that works, because if you just go "well, they did that and it worked" you're doomed to be 3 months behind them.
Maybe so, but if there is a superior solution and you ignore that you may be doomed to be more than 3 months behind.
Joie de vivre wrote:no i don't but, look it this way -> red bull uses strakes, mclaren uses strakes, ferrari uses strakes. and those teams were (and probably still are) better than merc
there has to be difference with endplates with and without strakes, obviously, so if we presume that non-strake endplate is better, why would top team run with strakes? The thing is, they haven't even try to test the version of endplate with strakes
but again, no, i don't have evidence
The problem with this is simple – you can't beat people simply by copying them. You have to go down your own path and find a solution that works, because if you just go "well, they did that and it worked" you're doomed to be 3 months behind them.
Maybe so, but if there is a superior solution and you ignore that you may be doomed to be more than 3 months behind.
So has Merc learned I hope. However, I wouldnt call these strakes superior, it isnt something like the EBD, DDD or F-Duct
n smikle wrote:The end plate guide vanes allow the air to flow faster between the endplates and diverge outward behind the rear tyres thereby enabling the diffisur to work more efficiently.
It's a no-brainer in my view... I really wonder why merc have not implemented it?
"enabling the diffisur to work more efficiently."
That is asumed, it is not sure.
Most teams this year got these vanes out of the diffuser area, and only working on the top side of the diffuser, out of it's low pressure zone. I think we can hereby asume that the vanes have a negative impact on the underside of the floor.
Also with that done we can also add the possibility that these vanes do not work at all with any area of the floor(but worse on the underside) but that it's reduction isn drag is enough to add the vanes.
Imo there seems to be a little trade off between df and drag. Vanes on reduces drag, as well as df, but vanes off improve downforce albeit with additional drag.
It seems like a no brainer, but imo it is not. Because although it fills in the wake behind the rear tire and reduces drag with that, it has also impact on the exhaust gasses in that area, as well as the wings on the brake duct, in that same area. So with that, there is just more going on than just filling the wake behind the rear tire.
Suit yourself.. its a common trick to use low pressure zones to pull the flow over wings, through diffusers and other aero devices.
It indeed is, doesnt mean that it works with multiple strakes forcing it behind the wheels.
Also like said, they removed these strakes out of the area of the underside of the floor, only focussing on the top side. So yeah, they do not seem to have an all that great impact on the low pressure flow out of the diffuser.
And like said, these strakes are directing flow from in between the end plates over the floor o the outside, into the wake of the rear wheel. That is real great on paper, however there is a whole brake duct with a crap load of winglets, which will be influenced by the strakes. And also exhaust gasses in that area, also will influenced by these strakes.
Just because it is a common trick doesnt mean it can be used everywhere, every time. Great that it is a common trick, but yeah, too bad aero isnt that simple, certainly not with another 100mm of area(of w/e it is) in between the rear wheel and rear wing end plate.
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe."Murray Walker, San Marino 1985
Maynard G. Krebs wrote:Maybe so, but if there is a superior solution and you ignore that you may be doomed to be more than 3 months behind.
Indeed, and given that F1 engineers are generally smart people, I think they probably realise that at Merc. Hence, it's a reasonable assumption to make that they feel that they somehow have a superior solution, not the reverse
beelsebob wrote:The problem with this is simple – you can't beat people simply by copying them. You have to go down your own path and find a solution that works, because if you just go "well, they did that and it worked" you're doomed to be 3 months behind them.
Yes, true. But for example RedBull had no idea what to do with the exhaust at start of 2012, so they copied Sauber one and refinded it with the tunnel, and others copied mclaren exhaust. There is a lot of copying and revising. I see no reason why wouldn't they just test it to see what those strakes bring them. Also why not try the V-cut on top of DRS flap like Ferrari and RBR? I just think, Mercedes is slow (which was confirmed not so few times) at testing different parts IRL. The same thing was with EBD, Coanda exhaust ...
beelsebob wrote:The problem with this is simple – you can't beat people simply by copying them. You have to go down your own path and find a solution that works, because if you just go "well, they did that and it worked" you're doomed to be 3 months behind them.
Yes, true. But for example RedBull had no idea what to do with the exhaust at start of 2012, so they copied Sauber one and refinded it with the tunnel, and others copied mclaren exhaust. There is a lot of copying and revising. I see no reason why would they just test it to see what those strakes bring them. Also why not try the V-cut on top of DRS flap like Ferrari and RBR? I just think, Mercedes is slow (which was confirmed not so few times) at testing different parts IRL. The same thing was with EBD, Coanda exhaust ...
Okay, so, we have established that copying other teams innovations is a common thing in F1; that Mercedes has done it in the past; that Mercedes have tools like CFD and a wind tunnel to tell them whether something provides the L/D they're after; and that they still have not put them on the car. This tells you something.
What it tells you is that Mercedes' engineers have looked at them, and decided that they do not provide the necessary benefits on their car.
What it does not tell you is that you know better than a bunch of trained aero engineers working on an F1 car with a bunch of advanced tools about what a complex aero device does.
Barcelona (Test 3, Session 2) - Day 2 (01.03.2013)
AMuS
Last edited by stefan_ on 01 Mar 2013, 11:52, edited 1 time in total.
"...and there, very much in flames, is Jacques Laffite's Ligier. That's obviously a turbo blaze, and of course, Laffite will be able to see that conflagration in his mirrors... he is coolly parking the car somewhere safe."Murray Walker, San Marino 1985
Yesterday we talked about why monkey seat on or off, because of having a balanced car instead of more DF at front or at rear:
did they change the position of front cameras under the nose (like McL and Ferrari as i recall) + monkey seat added to combine the both of them for more downforce? http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/wp-content/u ... G_0830.jpg
Without judging any times at the moment the car looks a lot better than last seasons.
There is no constant modification to different parts anymore, the discoloration issues have been solved by those black patches. The only thing "different" from other teams is the necesity for cooling openings on the sidepods.
Very sad to see though that it took them (or MSC) 3 years to reorganise and now MSC is not there to benefit. I would feel very very very sorry for him if MGP fought regularly for podiums this year.
Mandrake wrote:Without judging any times at the moment the car looks a lot better than last seasons.
There is no constant modification to different parts anymore, the discoloration issues have been solved by those black patches. The only thing "different" from other teams is the necesity for cooling openings on the sidepods.
Very sad to see though that it took them (or MSC) 3 years to reorganise and now MSC is not there to benefit. I would feel very very very sorry for him if MGP fought regularly for podiums this year.
I don't feel sorry for Michael, mainly because he was the number 1 driver in the most dominant team in Formula 1 history. I think anything he achieved in a Mercedes would have been a bonus.
