Which exhaust do you take?

Here are our CFD links and discussions about aerodynamics, suspension, driver safety and tyres. Please stick to F1 on this forum.

Which exhaust would you take?

McLaren's
37
43%
Red Bull ramp
50
57%
 
Total votes: 87

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

That cfd is not correct. nsmikle has a better representation.
For Sure!!

User avatar
Spacepace
0
Joined: 25 Nov 2012, 23:44

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

ringo wrote:
Spacepace wrote:
Interesting. Can I get you to expand on the point you made about the exhaust being effected by the free stream speed and the Red Bull exhaust being chuted right where it needs to be. Are you implying that the exhaust on the RB8 actually will curve down and land inbetween the diffuser and tyre?
The Mclaren's exhaust air flow and the ferrari's came off the bodywork over an air gap then onto the floor.
That air gap is the free stream. Depending on the air speed and the turbulence or whatever exists in the region, it will affect the direction of the exhuast flow as it comes off the bodywork. Keep in mind that it's the body work where the coanda works.
After the bodywork the effect is over, it's all flow trajectory.
Redbull's coanda continues since the bodywork is still supporting the flow. Free stream air, hence vehicle speed, wont have such a big effect on where the exhaust lands. This is why ferrari had a problem with their exhaust overheating the tyres, the level of control of the flow wasn't as high as newey's design.
Okay now I am started to see the picture better. I always just thought with the McLaren style exhaust even if there was no bodywork the exhaust would just want to attach to a surface I.e. the floor below. So they are really having to get a strong downwash to get the exhaust to the floor, which I think they probably do have the strongest downwash.

User avatar
amouzouris
105
Joined: 14 Feb 2011, 20:21

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

ringo wrote:That cfd is not correct. nsmikle has a better representation.
Ringo, I'd like you to elaborate on why you think it is not correct...

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

Cause the coando surfaces are not profiled precisley. It's run ok, but the coanda would give a more extreme curvature to the flow.
I'm not shooting it down, but if the surface was re profiled and the sim run again it will give the correct image of the coanda.
Let me dig up...

Image

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... &start=270

notice the curvature.
it can be seen from this why there is a power loss. As for the redbull coanda i'm not sure how it will look in a sim.
For Sure!!

User avatar
amouzouris
105
Joined: 14 Feb 2011, 20:21

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

ringo wrote:Cause the coando surfaces are not profiled precisley. It's run ok, but the coanda would give a more extreme curvature to the flow.
I'm not shooting it down, but if the surface was re profiled and the sim run again it will give the correct image of the coanda.
Let me dig up...

http://www.fotoshack.us/fotos/83492mp25g.png

http://www.f1technical.net/forum/viewto ... &start=270

notice the curvature.
it can be seen from this why there is a power loss. As for the redbull coanda i'm not sure how it will look in a sim.
If you noticed i did identify these problems with my drawing both in my blog and on my post here...in addition i said that obviously i didnt make it work...i am planning more cfd tests to improve both models... unfortunately now i am busy with exams

User avatar
ringo
230
Joined: 29 Mar 2009, 10:57

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

Yeah, i have no issues, but just making a clarification. I'm not gonna say it's wrong then leave it hanging without an explanation. It's easy to get very different results with CFD. I agree it's not a one shot deal to get things correct.
But some could possibly run with what they see and maybe misrepresent your images else where.
Your conclusions are correct however on the different designs.
For Sure!!

User avatar
amouzouris
105
Joined: 14 Feb 2011, 20:21

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

ringo wrote:Yeah, i have no issues, but just making a clarification. I'm not gonna say it's wrong then leave it hanging without an explanation. It's easy to get very different results with CFD. I agree it's not a one shot deal to get things correct.
But some could possibly run with what they see and maybe misrepresent your images else where.
Your conclusions are correct however on the different designs.
Now we do agree! So i would like to clarify myself as well that the macca style exhaust i tested is not representing what is happening with the real mclaren sidepods and exhaust flow!

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

An excerpt from the latest edition of Autosport magazine. It's Tim Goss talking about exhausts:
“For 2012 we did look at what Red Bull eventually ran,” says Goss. “We termed it the ‘slopey top deck’ but we found significant negatives to it. It was difficult to feed the diffuser ramp and starter hole, so we then looked at the tunnel arrangement to help with that but we found greater benefit using our extreme undercut to drive the diffuser and starter hole. It’s two different approaches to the same thing.”
I think what's important should be to not fall into the category trap of "Tim Goss tested both solutions, and he found the semi-coanda better than the ramp/tunnel, so that must be better." The exhaust, especially being something that far downstream in the car, would probably be very dependent on the car's sidepod, front wing and diffuser philosophies. Perhaps this coanda bulge design doesn't work as well on the Red Bull's sidepods, for example.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

The following is an excerpt from Mark Hughes' MPH column in the 28 February edition of Autosport:
Ross Brawn, who said: “Maybe their exhaust solution [regarding rear-bodywork design] was based on the idea that there would be more leeway with the mapping. [The Renault-engined] Red Bull’s and Lotus’s solution is problematic off-throttle, because in off-throttle mode there is less blowing from the exhaust and therefore less downforce contribution by the exhaust, which means that one has to rely more on the Coke bottle [profile of the rear bodywork]. But the Coke bottle on the Red Bull and Lotus is less pronounced because of their ramp behind the tailpipe. Therefore, their solution is inferior at corner entry compared to the solution pioneered by McLaren, and which all the teams except Red Bull and Lotus followed. It’s possible that they wanted to compensate with clever engine mapping.”
The design choice of exhaust layout is essentially whether or not to compromise the extent of the Coke bottle-style cut-in of the rear lower bodywork by partially blocking it with an exhaust-exit ramp that allows you to target the exhaust flow over the downforce- producing components to better effect. You can either have a McLaren-style sharply-defined Coke-bottle section that enhances the speed of the airflow along the flanks and over the brake ducts and diffuser top, but with compromised exhaust-enhanced downforce. Or you can go the Red Bull route and have ideal exhaust positioning at the cost of compromised airflow from the Coke-bottle section. This would be expected to give you superior downforce to the McLaren layout on-throttle but less off-throttle.
It pretty much tallies with what I thought. The ramp/tunnel solution provides a more pronounced exhaust effect, as the exhaust is isolated from any possibility of external interference. But of course given the increased obstruction to the path of other airflow there would be more drag thanks to the boundary layers, and also a less powerful effect from all other airflows (other than the exhaust-derived airflow). As I posted early on in the thread:
raymondu999 wrote:I think the difference really just stems from there. The Red Bull style, I would think, has a much stronger exhaust effect as the effect is shielded from any other flows, but at the cost of added drag, as obviously there will be additional boundary layers and additional choking issues to contend with.

IMO the reason why more people went McLaren is that it was easier to set up - but at the cost that the exhaust effect would be less, as the exhaust direction will be much more affected by other flows of air.
Regarding helping them regain the coke-bottle efficiency, it's an interesting problem - one that in my opinion Lotus and Red Bull have tackled in completely diverging solutions. The Lotus ramp terminates all the way near the diffuser - I think they're trying to completely scavenge whatever airflow they can into their tunnel, so that it "replaces" their original coke bottle, to help them with off-throttle downforce. The Red Bull, however - has terminated its exhaust ramp earlier. IMO this basically is so that the air can flow more "naturally" around the ramp itself as well. If you looked at the car from an aerial shot, it does look like there is a coke bottle shape forming behind the entire ramp/tunnel on the RB9 - so that when the exhaust gas isn't there, the air goes back into a more natural coke bottle.

In other news...

This has gotten me thinking. The Red Bull has generally been touted as the best chassis, producing the most "naturally aspirated" downforce from their chassis. But is that an effect of their chassis, or is it actually something that has been exhaust related? If we think back - their advantage in 09/10 has been in the flowing medium-high speed bends - a place where they would most likely be on part - if not full - throttle. In the latter stages of 09, they began to develop an affinity for traction. Traction is something that is called upon in "on-throttle" moments. In 2010, Button said that the Red Bull was strong on traction - but the McLaren was stronger on braking (said in the BBC post-race forum after Belgium 2010)

Could it be that actually, all this time - it has been a good implementation of exhaust that has given them the edge? Obviously their chassis must be very good too - but could it be that the final straw that broke the camel's back (ie the final component that nailed the hammer on them being quicker than Ferrari and McLaren) has been a good exhaust?

The RB5 had no exhaust driven diffuser, but let's not forget that even then, they were placing the exhaust in their coke bottle section. Could that have been the 2009 version of a coanda-based exhaust that utilised coanda in order to drive the exhaust flow over the diffuser? It wouldn't have been a significant effect (with the exhausts only blowing over, and not into, the diffuser) but it would have had some effect?

Thoughts?
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

Amus is reporting that the FW35 will sport a ramp/tunnel exhaust now. Perhaps they were indeed using the fin as a feeler for something more radical. Perhaps an entire pipe to funnel exhaust gases to the gap between the floor and tyre?

Interesting that the Renault runners seem to be converging on the ramp/tunnel idea. Perhaps the Renault engine, even without fancy mapping, produces more exhaust gases when off throttle, compared to their rivals? I remember that the Renault used butterfly valves for the throttle while the other two don't. Could that be it? Or I could have it the wrong way around.
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

From our very own beloved Scarbs (speaking of the new Williams bodywork):
Craig Scarborough wrote:The ramped section of bodywork encourages the exhaust to be directed to the edge of the diffuser using the Coanda effect.

While this is a more accurate way to direct the exhaust flow compared to the McLaren-style sidepod, it does make it harder to direct the general airflow around the car.
[...]
Driver comments at the end of the day suggest the car is better in both fast and slow turns with the new sidepods.
Source: http://plus.autosport.com/premium/featu ... arts-time/

I find the final part interesting. Quicker in the fast, AND slow corners. It does seem to me that given proper tuning opportunities, a well tuned bridge/tunnel exhaust is quicker, at least for the Renault boys
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

I have a question - for anyone who can answer. Would it not be legal to basically take the McLaren exhaust, and extend a "tongue" (a la early season Ferrari F2012) all the way to the gap between the floor and the tyre? Would that not probably provide the best of both worlds (when tuned right)?
失败者找理由,成功者找方法

Sevach
Sevach
1081
Joined: 07 Jun 2012, 17:00

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

I think there is a regulation regarding what type of bodywork you can put in that area (originally aimed at the flip ups and flow conditioners teams used to put ahead of the rear tyres).

And yes, if not for those rules i think a bridge with a huge gap underneath would be an unanimous choice.

User avatar
Pierce89
60
Joined: 21 Oct 2009, 18:38

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

raymondu999 wrote:I have a question - for anyone who can answer. Would it not be legal to basically take the McLaren exhaust, and extend a "tongue" (a la early season Ferrari F2012) all the way to the gap between the floor and the tyre? Would that not probably provide the best of both worlds (when tuned right)?
I believe the minimum radius rule would turn it into the "red bull solution" if they did that.
“To be able to actually make something is awfully nice”
Bruce McLaren on building his first McLaren racecars, 1970

“I've got to be careful what I say, but possibly to probably Juan would have had a bigger go”
Sir Frank Williams after the 2003 Canadian GP, where Ralf hesitated to pass brother M. Schumacher

User avatar
raymondu999
54
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 07:31

Re: Which exhaust do you take?

Post

Are you talking about the bodywork minimum radius rule that ensures the bodywork doesn't cut up others' tyres? Couldn't you make it a thick bridge then, as opposed to a "plank-like" bridge?
失败者找理由,成功者找方法