Mercedes AMG F1 W04

[kilcoo316]

I know rake gives more downforce even if you are not sealing the diffuser with any exhaust gases whatsover.

Almost. Let´s say you have no exhaust blowing anywhere near the diffuser, then you have a window where you have the optimal rake.
Below it and you are not utilizing all the potential, above it and you lose downforce.

What is worse is when you hit the brakes, the car's nose dives down, increases rake angle... then if your floor isn't good, you lose rear downforce right when you need it most*.

'Tis all about the dynamics.

Even Minardi would have had steady state aerodynamics pretty well sussed in the late 90s.


*That is where the front wing and wing endplate that Rob Redding is talking about comes into it - for sealing the sidepods.

[wesley123]

I know rake gives more downforce even if you are not sealing the diffuser with any exhaust gases whatsover.

Almost. Let´s say you have no exhaust blowing anywhere near the diffuser, then you have a window where you have the optimal rake.
Below it and you are not utilizing all the potential, above it and you lose downforce.

What is worse is when you hit the brakes, the car's nose dives down, increases rake angle... then if your floor isn't good, you lose rear downforce right when you need it most*.

That isnt much different now. Maybe the problem of rake has been reduced by usage of exhaust gasses but this pitch remains a problem. That is partially the reason why teams run so many slots in their front wing.

[Drewd11]

What is worse is when you hit the brakes, the car's nose dives down, increases rake angle... then if your floor isn't good, you lose rear downforce right when you need it most*.
[/quote]

That isnt much different now. Maybe the problem of rake has been reduced by usage of exhaust gasses but this pitch remains a problem. That is partially the reason why teams run so many slots in their front wing.[/quote]
Just wondering what the slots in the front wing have to do with that pitching problem?

[yener]

Tried my best to find better pictures but this is what i could find.

1. You can see Ferrari have moved their rear wing more backwards compared to the w04. I think this will create more load on the rear. The downforce amount wont change, but this way it will pust the car more to the ground.

What on earth...how moving a wing create more load? Are you talking about the moment around the CoG?

He's talking about the rear wing being on the end of a longer lever, and hence potentially applying a larger force to the rear wheels.

He's also wrong – it's simply a case of the photo having been taken from further forwards on the car. In all cases the rear wings align with the rear wheel centre line.

Didnt know that. Got tricked by the angel of the photo, but learned something again

[R_Redding]

Just wondering what the slots in the front wing have to do with that pitching problem?

Porpoising is usually a sign of imbalance , the front wing can cause it if it gets too close to the ground and stalls out, as Massas was doing last year at Monza

Quote fro Merc AMG.................

"The new front wing features 1st element that is known as main plane and additional 4 elements or separate sections behind it that are known as flaps. The main plane still supports “R” votex generators and cascades. There are smaller slot gaps (although it could reflect to view angles) between 2nd and 3rd element as upper section essentially forms twin flaps elements where the upper one has adjustable angle of attack. The upper flap also has an removable gurney flap.
The idea of multi element front wing is to prevent the separation that occurs when the air passing under the aerofoil shaped elements breaks up. This can be consequence of very high wing angle of attack in order to set up the wing to produce as many downforce as possible. It can also happen in other situations for example during cornering. The slot gaps between the multi element front wing will allow more airflow to pass under the aerofoil elements and prevent the separation. The inner “L” vortex generators and cascades are identical to old design. A neutral 50cm wide central is designed to according to FIA template so no changes in this area. The outboard double vane front wing endplates on wing tips that condition the air flow around the front wheels are identical to ones used on the older wing version."


Rob

[wesley123]

What is worse is when you hit the brakes, the car's nose dives down, increases rake angle... then if your floor isn't good, you lose rear downforce right when you need it most*.

That isnt much different now. Maybe the problem of rake has been reduced by usage of exhaust gasses but this pitch remains a problem. That is partially the reason why teams run so many slots in their front wing.[/quote]
Just wondering what the slots in the front wing have to do with that pitching problem?[/quote]

They prevent front wing stall by guiding air towards the underside of the wing. This is mainly useful in low front ride height situations(i.e. under braking)

[liveforf1]

a few pages back there was a post about the openings around the suspension points on the W04. i thought that was a good spot. the secret to this car according to Brawn is whats under the skin. i think the visual aero updates for 2013 are huge but where Brawn believes they have an edge is under the skin. Nico said after Jerez that the tires are not a problem for W04. if those holes indicate the ability to be flexible in terms of tire wear setup then that is something we haven't seen on other cars.

also is there any denying, whether on low fuel or not, that this car set a lap 2 secs faster than any lap they did at the same track last year? this was done in less than ideal temps for the working range of the tires. i believe Brawn's statement about making up 2 secs at least over the winter is accurate. i think the competition is genuinely concerned about the pace of the W04.

[raymondu999]

They prevent front wing stall by guiding air towards the underside of the wing. This is mainly useful in low front ride height situations(i.e. under braking)

I'm quite sure kilco was talking about diffuser stall rather than front wing stall

[NewtonMeter]

Porpoising is usually a sign of imbalance , the front wing can cause it if it gets too close to the ground and stalls out, as Massas was doing last year at Monza

Quote fro Merc AMG.................

<snip>

Rob

Very interesting, thank you.
Where did you find this information?

[Shakeman]

.....if those holes indicate the ability to be flexible in terms of tire wear setup then that is something we haven't seen on other cars.

This is very interesting and is worth developing. Wo what are Merc doing under the skin?

Why do the holes indicate their ability to be flexible in their setup?

[ForMuLaOne]

please delete.

[ForMuLaOne]

.....if those holes indicate the ability to be flexible in terms of tire wear setup then that is something we haven't seen on other cars.

This is very interesting and is worth developing. Wo what are Merc doing under the skin?

Why do the holes indicate their ability to be flexible in their setup?

I do believe that, in terms of aerodynamic, they will find a better solution by sealing the holes. Maybe they have moveable pickup points for the wishbones and suspension arms at the gearbox. Something that is able to slide forth and back and can be fixed in the right position. That means a huge setup range by changing the whole geometry. They were the most struggling people for the last years, maybe they combined every approach and came to the conclusion that it is worth it to build a car on which they can realise wishbones with different lenghts, in every combination they want to. You read it first here

[BlackMercedes]

Agreed the holes give more set up variations i am guessing under the skin of the w04 they have created a multi point suspension system.

TR in their car have opened up the set up variations for their new challenger, obviously the key is that all teams what to be competitive at every race

[user001]

.....if those holes indicate the ability to be flexible in terms of tire wear setup then that is something we haven't seen on other cars.

This is very interesting and is worth developing. Wo what are Merc doing under the skin?

Why do the holes indicate their ability to be flexible in their setup?

because with bigger holes you have more space to vary (widen or shorten) the angle of the suspension poles. simple as that. and imho the reason why the suspension holes on the front are widened resp. have space only vertically cause you don't want to change the front suspension angle (also stiffness) in terms of horizontal alignment. therefore the rear suspension holes look different as you see on my posted images 2-3 pages earlier.

as you take a closer look to the rear "holes" there are actually no holes. its the whole in the bodywork. there seems to be a moving plate/part on which the suspension pole is planted. this brings me to the conclusion that this may be part of the clandestine active suspension w04 is claimed to have. also the rake claimed by ted kravitz to be very low in i do not recall whether it had been a low or highspeed corner on one of his notebook sessions. maybe someone can enlighten me.

sure w03 had also this system but they couldn't make it work properly on all courses. last year's articles on the internet stated, that they divided the system into front-rear as everyone else in the pasddock. if they got it right this time. they're maybe two years ahead due to the problems they've had had with it ever since 2011.

[infy]

You dont need to make massive suspension changes during a race weekend. The teams have a very good idea where or where about they are with setup well before they arrive at the track, and so they drill the holes accordingly before they even arrive. I suspect that the Merc's larger holes were due to testing radically different suspension settings during the winter test. Come race weekend they will have replaced most of the car with new pieces and will cut holes for the right settings that they will be using.