Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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dren
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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infy wrote:You dont need to make massive suspension changes during a race weekend. The teams have a very good idea where or where about they are with setup well before they arrive at the track, and so they drill the holes accordingly before they even arrive. I suspect that the Merc's larger holes were due to testing radically different suspension settings during the winter test. Come race weekend they will have replaced most of the car with new pieces and will cut holes for the right settings that they will be using.
That is my guess as well.
Honda!

R_Redding
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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The holes could be for mounting sensor arrays ,pitot tubes , cameras etc. to check if the airs going where they want it to.

Rob

ForMuLaOne
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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infy wrote:You dont need to make massive suspension changes during a race weekend. The teams have a very good idea where or where about they are with setup well before they arrive at the track, and so they drill the holes accordingly before they even arrive. I suspect that the Merc's larger holes were due to testing radically different suspension settings during the winter test. Come race weekend they will have replaced most of the car with new pieces and will cut holes for the right settings that they will be using.
Sure for that, but it is a difference between chosing different lenghts of the wishbones in advance or having the possibility of changing the geometry as a whole piece. It is just speculation though. But it would be very nice indeed if they had a new gimmick like that. You could play around with wheelbase and stuff like that...

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Other teams have those same sized holes in the bodywork. You guys are blowing it out of proportion!

It's under the skin guys... under the skin..
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user001
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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infy wrote:You dont need to make massive suspension changes during a race weekend. The teams have a very good idea where or where about they are with setup well before they arrive at the track, and so they drill the holes accordingly before they even arrive. I suspect that the Merc's larger holes were due to testing radically different suspension settings during the winter test. Come race weekend they will have replaced most of the car with new pieces and will cut holes for the right settings that they will be using.
yes, once set it works automatically.
Last edited by user001 on 07 Mar 2013, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.

user001
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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n smikle wrote:Other teams have those same sized holes in the bodywork. You guys are blowing it out of proportion!

It's under the skin guys... under the skin..

no, I'm not blowing this out of proportion. tyre degradation was one of merc biggest problems. if they rule that out, as rosberg has been quoted after Jerez, this is one big step to be challenging for wins!

others also have those holes simply cause they have to. except mclaren at the front of the car.

can you show me images of the others?

and finally only cause merc made this that does not mean other teams don't. itΒ΄s simply more stressed resp. visible on the w04.
Last edited by user001 on 07 Mar 2013, 20:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Artur Craft
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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scarlet wrote:It's a question of balancing gains at the front with the rear. Ramping up the rake will almost always give gains in downforce at the front (lower front wing and splitter = better ground effects for these components). But this will only be beneficial if the downforce gained at the front can be balanced with gains at the rear. Raising the rear does increase diffuser volume, good in theory, but as explained beforehand the higher sides of the diffuser become much harder to seal, and if a team cannot do this the loss of diffuser performance, and rear downforce, will be massive.

If it was as simple as more rake = more downforce, with sealing an added extra, all teams would run the max allowed, and they don't.
Your point makes sense, it's that I once read from a sportscar aero guy that rake would increase downforce of the car he was talking about and it had not sealing at all on it.

Obviously, when there is rake, the whole floor starts to work as a diffuser, and the diffuser, itself, also gets bigger(more volume as you perfectly said). Equally obvious is that the vertical gap(or ground clearance) between the ground and the rear bodywork will increase which, in turns, take away some downforce and it makes easier to the high pressure air surrounding to get in to the underbody and increase the pressure there.

Based on what that engineer said(don't remember where I read that, unfortunately), I have been thinking ever since that the benefit of rake outweights it's negative side

Obviously, with a good seal, the rake will work even better, regardless of anything else.


Unfortunately we don't have measuring devices(wind tunnels and etc) and a F1 car to investigate this :(

I just wonder, if for the rake to work properly, a good seal is absolutely necessary, then why Mclaren and Sauber(who probably had better seal than Red Bull, at least at the begining of last year) never ran as much rake as RBR have been doing for such a long time?

Maybe I missed ocasions in which these 2 team's cars ran big rake but right now I can't remember
Nando wrote: Almost. LetΒ΄s say you have no exhaust blowing anywhere near the diffuser, then you have a window where you have the optimal rake.
Below it and you are not utilizing all the potential, above it and you lose downforce.
Yeah, probably there is an ideal rake setup for a car's characteristics(seal capacity)

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Artur Craft
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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turbof1 wrote: That's because they can't fully seal it when it is max ramped. When it isn't fully sealed, air will spill and the diffuser will stall. That is why they are using since 2011 the exhausts to seal it so that they can increase the rake. They never could run such a rake if not for the exhaust plume. More sealing=more rake=more downforce. But teams are only limited in how much they can seal it; the only legal way is using the exhaust plume which has a minimum distance to the diffuser, and is angled away from it. So a little refrasing: the better teams are able to pull the plume down=the more sealing=the more rake=the more rear downforce. That was my original point: by the amount of rake you can tell how good a team is able to pull down the plume and to seal the diffuser.
I don't think even the skirts used from 78/79 untill 81 were capable of fully sealing the sides of the car, let alone an exhaust plume.

But isn't necessary to fully seal the side in order to have gains. A partial lateral block is very benefitial as it reduces the amount of high pressure air that will get into the underbody.

When I say partial, I'm refereing to the tire/diffuser gap, as obviously the parts where the plume doesn't go, have no seal at all. My estimation is that not even the tire/diffuser gap is even close to be fully sealed.

Also, I don't think the diffuser ever trully "stalls", in the strict sense. It never loses all of it's downforce generation capabilities, but rather it get's reduced under some circunstances.

To stay on topic, eventhough the point you made is coherent, I'm not entirely sure that more rake definitely proves how successfull a team(in this case W04) is sealing the diffuser. It might be, but I'm just not sure yet and it would be nice if some F1 engineer confirmed it in any of those, quite rare unfortunately, technical interviews
R_Redding wrote:The amount of rake seen on the car is an indication of how well the front wing is working and how well they have sealed the undersides of the floor.

The best example of a sealed underfloor would be the dragged skirt cars of the late 70,early80s.

The teams will try to run as much rake as they can , as the front wing will perform better the closer it is to the ground due to ground effect.(more df , less drag).

But they also use the front wing to create a vortex down the side of the car in an effort to create a air curtain.

Most top teams now run underwing VGs and front wings with complex end plates,which try to create vortices around either side of the tyre, just enough to get passed the tyre ,and then back to the underside

This CFD image from SFI shows the endplate and VG streams coming from the front wing to seal the floor sides.
http://i.imgur.com/uzuOT.jpg[/url]

So more rake in the W04 is prolly acievable because of a much better front wing http://www.formula1.com/wi/gi/597x478/f ... 4fe042.JPG

Rob
Thanks for the post, some nice points. Just one thing, does SFI stands for Scuderia Force India?

kooleracer
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Almost, Sahara Force India :)
Irvine:"If you don't have a good car you can't win it, unless you are Michael or Senna. Lots of guys won in Adrian Newey's cars, big deal. Adrian is the real genius out there, there is Senna, there is Michael and there is Newey.They were the three great talents."

OppositeLock
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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R_Redding wrote:
Drewd11 wrote: Just wondering what the slots in the front wing have to do with that pitching problem?
Porpoising is usually a sign of imbalance , the front wing can cause it if it gets too close to the ground and stalls out, as Massas was doing last year at Monza

Quote fro Merc AMG.................

"The new front wing features 1st element that is known as main plane and additional 4 elements or separate sections behind it that are known as flaps. The main plane still supports β€œR” votex generators and cascades. There are smaller slot gaps (although it could reflect to view angles) between 2nd and 3rd element as upper section essentially forms twin flaps elements where the upper one has adjustable angle of attack. The upper flap also has an removable gurney flap.
The idea of multi element front wing is to prevent the separation that occurs when the air passing under the aerofoil shaped elements breaks up. This can be consequence of very high wing angle of attack in order to set up the wing to produce as many downforce as possible. It can also happen in other situations for example during cornering. The slot gaps between the multi element front wing will allow more airflow to pass under the aerofoil elements and prevent the separation. The inner β€œL” vortex generators and cascades are identical to old design. A neutral 50cm wide central is designed to according to FIA template so no changes in this area. The outboard double vane front wing endplates on wing tips that condition the air flow around the front wheels are identical to ones used on the older wing version."


Rob
Brawn GP pioneered the endplate-less front wing. http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2011/03/11/me ... -analysis/

Hobbs04
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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It appears Mercedes miracle suspension may be working. All this talk of rake. Wasn't lotus suspension gizmo purpose for anti dive. So maybe by all these pictures showing such a high rake is proof they can run soft setups for tire deg without the fear of scraping the front end. Well that's just my theory.

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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The suspension is actually much simpler and more workable than the 2012 suspension.
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Richard
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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n smikle wrote:The suspension is actually much simpler and more workable than the 2012 suspension.
In what way, are there any known specifics ?

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PlatinumZealot
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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Nope, just a quote i cannot find right now. Aldo (or was it Brawn), last year, said the suspension was overly complicated and it was causing them too much set up time.
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scuderiafan
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Re: Mercedes AMG F1 W04

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richard_leeds wrote:
n smikle wrote:The suspension is actually much simpler and more workable than the 2012 suspension.
In what way, are there any known specifics ?
From what I've collected, it's more of a conventional setup. I know that last years was based around some funky hydraulic system, and this years using conventional springs and dampers and such.
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