ARROWS - Cockpit Simulation Racing System

[Pup]

I don't get it.

If I'm a spectator, how does the knowledge that the drivers are squirreled away in some building instead of at the track where I can see them make this and more exciting than current RC racing?

If I'm the driver, how does the knowledge that there's an RC car zooming around on some track somewhere make this any more exciting than sitting in front of an xbox?

[arrowscsrs]

Great to hear you are Greek!
Also one thing that just occurred to me, when playing a video game they usually use a higher frame rate than 30fps. Because you are much more alert and 30fps are too slow.. So I don't know how well it will work as driving a car at high speeds will make you very alert...I can't remember what frame rates video games use, my computing class seems like ages back! IIRC it is >60 fps to make it smooth... I don't know If you have considered that

I know exactly what you mean. Had the same thoughts/reservations.
I have too followed discussions on FPV topics on what is the speed a human eye / brain can detect, if it is 30, 45, 60 or 90 fps. To tell you the truth I do not know.

What I am comfortable with is that the entire optical broadcasting system are professional equipment used by the television industry and is the exact same equipment used on board the F1 cars, so I guess the output they have is sufficient.

I think the action cameras also use the same rate as standard (having the 60 fps feature for slow motion reproduction).

Thereafter on how much the latency will affect the controlling of the model, when speeding at 100 km/hr we get 100,000 mts/3600 sec = 27,7 mtrs /sec divided by 30 (fps) we have 0,92 mtrs per frame.
So when speeding at 100 km/hr, we will be actually reacting while the model is already viewing 0,93 mtrs ahead.
That is abt half car's length. That might be a problem when overtaking.
Of course when doing half that speed, the distance run is half that and the problem is lessen.

[arrowscsrs]

I don't get it.

If I'm a spectator, how does the knowledge that the drivers are squirreled away in some building instead of at the track where I can see them make this and more exciting than current RC racing?

If I'm the driver, how does the knowledge that there's an RC car zooming around on some track somewhere make this any more exciting than sitting in front of an xbox?

The cockpit simulation environment and the immerse feeling is for the driver to enjoy only.
As a spectator you can enjoy a good race, but you will never experience what the driver does. This is the same to anything.
Even at a F1 race you never get to see the driver actually doing something, you just see the car maneuvering.
(this is what you are saying right ?)
Now if the car models are bigger than regular, they are more realistically maneuvering and the track is bigger, I guess it will be more fun to watch.


If you are the driver you get a lot more.
- To start with you are driving the car on site, that is you drive or get driven to the site. You and the car and the cockpit are all together next to the track.
So the car is zooming right outside the control room you are in.

Now if you ask me to compare actual with virtual, I would have to ask you what do we compare ?
If we are comparing on equal quality, I would say actual is best at all times, but again what is equal quality ?
Virtual after all is the way to get the closest possible to the actual,right ?
So the question is how good "actual" is.

Look I am neither RC racer or PC gamer. Have tried both and got board both.
The RC because I though it would be easier for me to maneuver and the PC because it was flat.
I would have gone for the RC though if only I could get out of it the excitement I was looking for.

The main problem with traditional RC - in my view - is the difficulty in precisely controlling the model in terms of:
- Orientation related restraints, mainly associated to inexperienced users, especially when the model moves perpendicular to the user, or when it moves towards, or at an angle to them and getting worse the further away from the controller it moves.
Traditional FPV definitely improves the conditions but it still offers limited view and poor quality visuals.
- Non precise steering associated to transmitter’s knob size and sensitivity, not favoring precise micro controlling.
- Distance constraints. The size of the track is limited to the controllers field of view. A typical race track will be 80-100 mtrs length and 35-40 mts wide.

Now on ARROWS you are actually sitting in the drivers seat - at least as far as the visuals are concerned.
The steering wheel - due to its size - can be far more precise than the transmitter's knob.
Driving FPV you are liberated, distance constraints no longer apply, and you can actually race on your favorite race tracks scaled down to 1:3 or 1:2,25

ARROWS uses the RC as a median to suggest a whole new product, not just for RC races or for PC gamers or for kart / auto racers but for all. Anyone that masters the basic driving skills is eligible.

This is how we perceive upgrading the sport.

When coming to how you visualize ARROWS, do not let your experience or whatever exists limit your vision on the project.
Think big, think what you ever wanted from a game, Think perfect.

[arrowscsrs]

Been tried and it currently doesn't work, drivers have literally been bolting on camera to r/c cars but it to difficult to get a wide it enough perpective to see the corners properly.
Try VRC pro First to get a better idea of rc car simulation views before going any further

Man, we need to focus on HOW it can be done, not why it cannot be done.
Ask yourself if you had unlimited resources, would you be able to do it ? Not alone but would you ?
Sure you could.
Producing something has nothing to do with the cost. Cost has to do with marketing what you produce.
Ans that is a whole different ball game.

[andylaurence]

Have you done a proof of concept with one of these and one of these? That might tell you if it really works well. From there, you can worry about building the cockpit and upgrading to HD.

[Smokes]

1/12th scale A finals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6unNqfRGxxU

1/10th scale euros buggy a final http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcrWWqFLTQA

1/10 th scale toruring car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaXLtPGrTGQ

Even though these car go slower than a F1 car they will pull 6g+ in a corner due to small size low weight and rapid accellaration.

[Pup]

Now if the car models are bigger than regular, they are more realistically maneuvering and the track is bigger, I guess it will be more fun to watch.

That's what you're offering the spectators? Bigger cars?

If you are the driver you get a lot more. To start with you are driving the car on site, that is you drive or get driven to the site. You and the car and the cockpit are all together next to the track. So the car is zooming right outside the control room you are in.

So?

Now if you ask me to compare actual with virtual, I would have to ask you what do we compare? If we are comparing on equal quality, I would say actual is best at all times, but again what is equal quality? Virtual after all is the way to get the closest possible to the actual,right? So the question is how good "actual" is.

Reread this paragraph sometime when you're not high, and tell me if it sounds nearly so profound.

The main problem with traditional RC - in my view - is the difficulty in precisely controlling the model...

i.e., it's raison d'être

When coming to how you visualize ARROWS, do not let your experience or whatever exists limit your vision on the project. Think big, think what you ever wanted from a game, Think perfect.

Thanks. Will do.

It comes down to this:

Man, we need to focus on HOW it can be done, not why it cannot be done.

I think you should focus on why it should be done. I don't see the appeal of what you're promoting.

[Pup]

OK, that was a bit harsh. But maybe this idea needs a little harsh right now. I don't think you really have answers as to why this will appeal to a broader market than the current RC crowd, or probably just a subset thereof.

[hollowBallistix]

I can understand the appeal of being more immersed in driving an RC car, suppose you could be more accurate in controlling the thing with an on-board view & steering wheel controller, not sure if it will appeal to everyone though, but why not look into something like this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0ZXnoKbxx8

[arrowscsrs]

OK, that was a bit harsh. But maybe this idea needs a little harsh right now. I don't think you really have answers as to why this will appeal to a broader market than the current RC crowd, or probably just a subset thereof.

No offense taken, but tks nevertheless.

Initially I was under the impression that you were comparing this project to the real thing. I am not a race driver myself, but I am sure nothings compares to the feeling the real thing gives to the driver and probably the spectators, but primarily to the drivers.

That said, we went on to read this article about the RB simulator. The man on the project claiming the drivers were using their time in the simulator as an addition to their on track practicing, while at the same time they would get the same
upper body workout they would get should they were racing the car itself.
That meant that under the right conditions, a simulation can be very realistic. So realistic that F1 teams uses it as part of their practice sessions.

Now what ARROWS suggests is the creation of an environment that regular people can come and race a model RC race car, getting the same feeling they would have gotten, should they have driving the real thing.
The RC car is just the median to reach the goal. People will come from all sorts of backgrounds, RC, PC, karting, regular race car fans. As long as they know how to drive they can do it and they will enjoy it the same.

Thereafter the users will be charged a rental fee for practicing and racing the ARROWS cars on the ARROWS track through the ARROWS control rooms. They will not be required to purchase anything (unless of course they would be interested in buying the car for upgrading it, tuning it etc).
Spectators will not be charged anything. Spectators will most probably be drivers awaiting their turn to race, or drivers that had concluded their race and/or their friends/team mates etc.

At the beginning I though you were either a RC racer or a PC gamer, so I was trying to explain what innovation ARROWS suggest. What I wanted to express is that you cannot compare an RC car model to a PC game in terms of which one duplicates reality best. You can only compare the excitement one gets using either.
Now as said the real thing is the uncontested winner here, but what gives us the second best experience.

All what RC models and PC simulators do is to bring the user closest possible to experiencing the real thing.
From little kids this is all that we wanted and still is. We may no longer dream to become champions, but surely be able to win the race.

RC models do it and PC games do it their own way. What we suggest is to be able to remotely race a real scaled down car while sit in a cockpit simulator replicating a real cockpit as you will be having the drivers perspective. As to how good this will be, it has to be of the highest quality, otherwise no reason to do it.

I cannot prove that you will like it, but I am sure you will.

P.S. I just got an e-mail from an RC forum moderator want to remove our thread claim it being "a simulation, and its not the kind of thing that anybody in this community would ever be interested in".

[arrowscsrs]

I can understand the appeal of being more immersed in driving an RC car, suppose you could be more accurate in controlling the thing with an on-board view & steering wheel controller, not sure if it will appeal to everyone though, but why not look into something like this ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 0ZXnoKbxx8

Driving race cars is every kids dream. Flying is a human urge.
FPV piloting airplanes is fantastic.
Now if were are talking abt HD transmission and dome projection in the cockpit simulator, there are several and serious constraints, to include safety and permissions.

[arrowscsrs]

1/12th scale A finals http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6unNqfRGxxU

1/10th scale euros buggy a final http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcrWWqFLTQA

1/10 th scale toruring car http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaXLtPGrTGQ

Even though these car go slower than a F1 car they will pull 6g+ in a corner due to small size low weight and rapid accellaration.

The problem is that the onboard HD system is big even for the 1:5 scale models.
Thereafter we aim to have the car performing proportional to the real car performance.

[Smokes]

1:5 are expensive and tyres are expensive, you wold need a large track which is expensive. Have you looked at the VRC pro simulator for rc car. We use that for rc race simulation on road and off road.

[arrowscsrs]

Have you done a proof of concept with one of these and one of these? That might tell you if it really works well. From there, you can worry about building the cockpit and upgrading to HD.

That's from onboard an 1/8 model
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T4PCcfODNZ4

[arrowscsrs]

1:5 are expensive and tyres are expensive, you wold need a large track which is expensive. Have you looked at the VRC pro simulator for rc car. We use that for rc race simulation on road and off road.

With regards to the cost of a full ARROWS track system to include 20 control rooms/cockpits + 25 onboard units (3 spare), 40 race car models (20 + 20 spares in case of accidents/breakdowns) + 1 race track, is estimated to something between 1,5-2 million euros.
The production cost of the car itself is not expected more than 2,5 - 3,000 euros. The real cost comes when designing it.

ARROWS is an entirely new concept and for that there is a cost.