JPM's NASCAR Revue

Please discuss here all your remarks and pose your questions about all racing series, except Formula One. Both technical and other questions about GP2, Touring cars, IRL, LMS, ...
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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
Location: Atlanta

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The Z06 gets 26 miles per gallon. In a car that's faster in every respect than an F430. It cost a 1/3 of the rest of cars of it's performance caliber, it has an 'archaic', to some, pushrod V-8 that gives all European powerplants a run for thier money, and with a set of heads and a MILD cam they have pushed almost 700 hp. Try that with a Ferrari, for that matter try changing the oil. Or you can pay someone a couple hundred bucks to do so every three thopusand miles. It will do 0 to 175 in fifth gear from a standstill, laps the Nurburgring in less time than a Carrera GT. It's a steal, it looks great, outperforms cars three and four times it's price, and yet all we ever hear is about it's design, or the headlights, or whatever. It's better than most of what they drive and they won't admit it. As for the bodywork on SUV's and such, I kinda agree. But asinine crash regualations mean that it has to be this way. Some of them I quite like, if you can't tell I'm a Chevy fan. I believe there is no better internal combustion engine than the Chevy 350.

I am rooting for JPM all the way. The guy has a good head on his shoulders, isn't arrogant and expects to gain respect and win alot of races at the start, and has great personality. I hope he does great in the future and I will be watching!

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flynfrog
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Joined: 23 Mar 2006, 22:31

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Ray wrote:The Z06 gets 26 miles per gallon. In a car that's faster in every respect than an F430. It cost a 1/3 of the rest of cars of it's performance caliber, it has an 'archaic', to some, pushrod V-8 that gives all European powerplants a run for thier money, and with a set of heads and a MILD cam they have pushed almost 700 hp. Try that with a Ferrari, for that matter try changing the oil. Or you can pay someone a couple hundred bucks to do so every three thopusand miles. It will do 0 to 175 in fifth gear from a standstill, laps the Nurburgring in less time than a Carrera GT. It's a steal, it looks great, outperforms cars three and four times it's price, and yet all we ever hear is about it's design, or the headlights, or whatever. It's better than most of what they drive and they won't admit it. As for the bodywork on SUV's and such, I kinda agree. But asinine crash regualations mean that it has to be this way. Some of them I quite like, if you can't tell I'm a Chevy fan. I believe there is no better internal combustion engine than the Chevy 350.

I am rooting for JPM all the way. The guy has a good head on his shoulders, isn't arrogant and expects to gain respect and win alot of races at the start, and has great personality. I hope he does great in the future and I will be watching!

Dont get me worng i think the Z06 is a great car preformance wise but its not realy the end all of what a car should be. Its interior isnt all that nice it also lacks the quality of the euro cars

As far as the 350 being a great power plant well its ok but there are better desings out there this coming form a long line of chevy mecahics.

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pRo
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Joined: 29 May 2006, 09:08

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Ray wrote:Z06. It's quite possibly the best supercar for the money
Maybe in US. :?

2005 Corvette, the basic model with about 330hp, was $169,000 over here. I haven't seen any prices for the new models yet, but would you buy one for that? :?

Have to agree, they are great value for money in US. 8) It just doesn't apply to every other country in the world.
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
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The Corvette in 2005 came with 400 hp stock, not 330. So that's not right. Plus, whatever it costs anywhere else, the slower F430 is more expensive. It outruns cars three times it's price. Enough said.

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pRo
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Ray wrote:The Corvette in 2005 came with 400 hp stock, not 330. So that's not right.
That's what they quote over here, 330hp. Same power for 2000-2005. 5.7l V8. That's the last model I know has been for sale over here. Like I said, I haven't seen the prices for the new models yet. You're probably talking about that with the 400hp?

Plus, whatever it costs anywhere else, the slower F430 is more expensive. It outruns cars three times it's price. Enough said.
Quite often, the appeal of a car isn't all about the speed. ;)

If I had the money, I'd take any new Ferrari over any new Chevrolet.

If I wanted something really fast, I wouldn't get either. 8)
Formula 1, 57, died Thursday, Sept. 13, 2007
Born May 13, 1950, in Silverstone, United Kingdom
Will be held in the hearts of millions forever
Rest In Peace, we will not forget you

Carlos
Carlos
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Joined: 02 Sep 2006, 19:43
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Concerning Nascar--it's expansion -- specifically into Central and South American media markets and races -- the Mexico event is highlighted--
the American news network -- National Public Radio -- on Nov 24th did an extensive report on the expansion of Nascar into these massive markets -- of course Pilot Montoya was discussed -- the audio archive can be accessed over the internet -- there's been a lot of discussion on F1technical about the brilliant marketing efforts of Nascar -- it's accelerrated expansion and popularity--many times it is mentioned on threads how F1 could learn a few things from Nascar--the report is also an interesting "window" on social aspects of America -- questions and opinions which also often appear in Forum discussions. I would be interested in your opinions and insights. Nascar has done exhibition races internationally -- has F1 ever? NPR is often thought to express Left of Centre interpetations of events-- interestly enough.

The report is archived on the website: http://www.NPR.org

The report was on the broadcast of "Morning Edition" Nov 24th 8AM-10AM

Regards Carlos
Last edited by Carlos on 24 Nov 2006, 19:25, edited 1 time in total.

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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I agree with Ray, the Corvette is a quality sporting car. Syling, fit and finish are personal preferences, there's no right or wrong, just personal perferences.
Some people may poo poo the 'Vette because it's technical specifications may seem agricultural on first glance. But in reality, this is a refined and capable design, a car that runs with the big dogs.
A large displacement OHV V-8 may seem very dated, but it is the apporpriate choice for such a platform. Many years ago GM engineers studied which kind of powerplant was best for the "vetter. They could have gone down about any road, from turbo 4's to high RPM V-6's, or any other direction. But in the end, the V-8 was selected for many reasons. It still makes respectable power. It can be easily serviced by thousands of dealerships, it was the traditional favorite of traditional Corvetter owners, and there would be no need to reinvest in building a new engine factory.
The Corvette is not a world car, it was aimed at a specific segment of the US market.
If my buget allowed me the luxury of a true sports car, yet my pocklets weren't deep enough to own an exotic, I too would probably own a Corvette.

Carlos
Carlos
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On the question of US engine technology VS Euro technology-- I recall an interesting, insightful and direct example. In the CANAM series --GM dominated with it's race refined 7 litre push rod OHV -- The Euro response was submitted by Ferrari -- they entered the P4 in several CANAM races and the results were dissappointing -- Ferrarri's response was a car developed specifically for this series -- it closely resembled the McLaren
design in chassis and aero bodywork -- actually nearly a copy-- they punched out the displacement of the 4 valve, double overhead cam to the identical General Motors engine -- to 7 litres and still couldn't match the GM entries horsepower or pace -- don't even consider faulting the ability of the pilot -- Chris Amon -- Specifications and more complex design and engineering are often useless -- refinement is. Why -- on another facet of life I have had Companions who's superficial physical characteristics did not meet worldly interpetation of the ultimate -- but the refinement and developement of character made them a delight! I have been so very fortunate. :wink: :lol: :wink:

Edit: Lola, March & BRM raced in CANAM-- all 3 were European constructors -- but they had the wisdom to use an American General Motors, push-rod OHV engine. Porsches late entry into the series was the exception to the rule-- of GM domination of CANAM

DaveKillens
DaveKillens
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Joined: 20 Jan 2005, 04:02

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Some times people get so caught up in the gee whiz, flash-bang of shiny toys and new technology they forget that it has to be applied to where it is effective. There have been many, many racing and road cars that were built and introduced with leading edge technology and equipment miles ahead on the specification sheet. But many fell flat and got trampled by competitors that were more utilitarian and effective.
Another good comparison, apart from Can-AM, was the Ford GT-40. The final evolution had a very traditional US large displacement V-8, and brutally stomped and trashed anyone daring to match them at LeMans. The Ford was sent to war to beat Ferrari, and they came away dripping with blood from their vanquished foe.

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
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I'm just saying, and thanks for the rebuttals, the Corvette Z06 is the best sportscar for the money. Hands down. It may not look as good, or whatnot as a Ferrari. You are absolutely right on the interior as well. It may not be up to Eurocar standards. I'm not really worried about the cupholders coming out of a third gear lefthander at 110. That's just me. On top of all that was being said here, the pushrod V-8 can make just as much power with less maintenance than anything Ferrari can come up with. The current egnine in that car is the best N/A OHV V-8 made anywhere. I can change the oil on a Z06, replace the plugs, pull the heads, change cams, drive it on a 40 mile, or longer, round trip to work. How many Ferrari's can you do that to for 100,000 miles without major rework?

Carlos
Carlos
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Actually; If you refer to conceptcarz.com -- concerning the GT 40.
Mr C Shelby-- had the NASCAR 427CID dropped into the Ford GT 40 -- this man had some :wink: success with the Cobra road cars and the Cobra Daytona Coupe --- I also have noted that many small Italian and English manufacturers, over the years-- have used American push-rod OHV engines, but then it may not have been because of their superior power & simplicity, I can't recall Maserati, Jaguar,Ferrari or Aston Martin offering engines to small builders :wink:
Didn't John Wyer continue dominating European Prototype racing well into the 1970's under the Mirage concern? :wink: --which were basically GT 40's? Did'nt that Yank Jim Hall build some competitive Chapparal Prototypes with -- once again American push-rod OHV engines :wink: made by General Motors? :wink: Sometimes we just have to be "big enough" to give credit when credits due. Europeans laid down the basis of physics, chemistry , biology and engineering -- in fact all the sciences -- the USA has a way of extending those disiplines and turning it into the nuts and bolts of technology.

I guess tho' simple Good ole boys of NASCAR USA ga a thing or 2 goin' for em :wink: Who'd a thunk it? :wink:

I think those Americans have done some high tech work too --- did'nt they have something to do with the transistor and microchip? :wink: My guess is that maybe those Yanks are kinda smart the way they apply simple tech when needed--and high tech when necessary :wink: It's almost unthinkable that the ordinary guy in the US can actually afford a supercar :wink: There auta be a law aginit :shock:

Carlos
Carlos
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Sometimes my enthusiasms -- whether concerning NASCAR -- or almost anything for that matter -- go a little over the top. I admit it.

Regards Carlos

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Ray
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Joined: 22 Nov 2006, 06:33
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The best thing about the Z06, like you said, it's dead simple. Proven technology that blows the doors off cars three times it's price. You average car guy can work on any part of that car with tools bought at Sears. They know how it works, how to fix it, and it is a 200 mph car that comes with a warranty!

Back to JPM though. I can't WAIT to see how he does throwing a 3500 pound stock car around Sears Point and Watkins Glen. That is going to be a HUGE wake up call for him. I know he is talented at road racing, but NASCAR road racing is a whole nother animal. I think he'll do good, I like the guy alot. But he'd better brush up on his heel and toeing, he'll need it.

Reca
Reca
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Joined: 21 Dec 2003, 18:22
Location: Monza, Italy

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Ray wrote: But I can't shake off how the Europeans look down thier noses at our cars. Hell, I've heard nothing but snide remarks from Jeremy Clark about the new Z06. It's quite possibly the best supercar for the money and all that is being said about it is it's American.
The fact is that you look at it from the US perspective based on the situation in US while to understand our point of view you should look at it from the European perspective based on the situation in Europe, the two are very different.

For example you say in US you can buy 3 Z06 for a F430.
Well, here even if the strong € theoretically should favour it, you can’t even buy 2 for 1 because the Z06 costs more than half a F430 or Gallardo, 90k € vs 150-160k €.
And, frankly, at 90k € a car isn’t certainly cheap, it’s basically the same needed for a Porsche 997S (92-93k), while the 4S gets close to 100k, and the GT3 to 115k.

Then you have to pay annual taxes and insurance, these are proportional not only to car’s cost but to power and engine displacement too, so you have to spend a lot each year for the pleasure to own these 7 litres.
Next is fuel consumption, for European driving style and roads isn’t as good as what the long 6th gear makes you believe from numbers on paper, and at 1.2€/litre, close to 6$/gal, to fill her up means again lot of money.
Maintenance and repair of a Z06 then aren’t as easy or cheap as in US and at the end, after you kept it for a couple of years and want to sell it, the Corvette has basically no market here and lost most of its value already.

All the above makes of the Z06 a car that is reserved to a person with an already quite high level of earnings, who most likely owns at least 1-2 further cars of high level; such person probably expects from a sportcar of that cost something more, as overall package, than the Z06 offers; possibly for him/her the F430 and Gallardo are still too costly but he’s not light years distant from affording them, and certainly could easily afford some thousand € more and buy a Porsche 4S or even a GT3 without thinking twice about the money difference.

In short we don’t deny that the Z06 is undoubtedly a good and fast car and in particular it’s perfect for its market in US, but European supercars on the European market are still preferable for many reasons, hence why we don’t consider the Zee-Oh-Six a gift from heaven as you do.


At the end about the Z06 vs F430 on track, I would like to make a long due observation since the argument appears every now and then.

The F430 on track is easily faster than the Z06 and it’s just normal that that’s the case, even if it has a bit less power, it’s an overall better car, more balanced with a better chassis etc etc.
The Z06 has a chance to be competitive and in particular situations marginally faster, only when confronted with an F430 equipped with the Bridgestone tyres standard.

That’s because Ferrari reasoning, not only for the F430 but for the entire production, is that a person with enough money to buy a Ferrari also has a couple thousand € to spend for a set of high performance tyres to use the few times per year he decides to have fun on track and fully unlock the car’s potential (assuming he’s able to...).
Consequently as standard equipment they mount tyres meant to be a safe choice for road use, that work well on both dry and wet, focused on forgiveness and durability. The compromise sacrifices absolute performance on track, but only there, on the road those are excellent tyres and someone even thinking about pushing enough to find out the difference in peak performance should be immediately arrested.

With the Z06 on the contrary GM needed mostly to impress with pure performance visible on paper, so low laptime, high skidpad lateral g numbers and all the things that are easily measurable and make the happiness of magazine readers. Consequently they put on it as standard equipment big tailor-made Goodyear F1 Supercar definitively dry grip oriented, with a shallow tread, not really good on wet and not very durable.

When the F430 is equipped with equally performance oriented Pirelli P.Zero Corsa System (available as option) there’s an evident performance difference in favour of the F430, as demonstrated by the recent comparative test made by both Quattroruote (Italian magazine) and Road&Track (American magazine) that tested 6 supercars at Vairano. http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp ... le_id=3757
The best time on the handling track was set by F430, 1’17”4, followed by Gallardo, 1’17”8. Viper and Z06 were third at 1’19”5, just 1 tenth better than GT40, last the 911T with 1’19”9.

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Ray
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Of course you are going to defend your precious Ferrari, you are in Italy for Christ's sake. Your average guy can't work on a Ferrari, even the ones who can afford them. They are beautiful cars, but I doubt they'd run 100,000 miles without having to go back to Italy for some sort of major work. According to your story link, the Ferrari is over twice as much and only a second faster or so. In a car you can't fix yourself. Real deal. Great defense on the tires by the way. Why is it that Euro snobs always find ANY way to discredit our vehicles so that it seems the car isn't that great? How? Because you guys are jerks, that's why. I'm done with the Z06 argument. You and people like you in Europe will continue to look down your nose at our cars for no other reason than they are American and it must not be able to corner. Nothing I can say will stop you from being prejudice and hateful against us, I don't care anymore. I know what kind of great value it has, and European snobs like yourself will try and make it out to not be that way and try and convince me otherwise. It's better car for the money than a Ferrari. Period.
Last edited by Ray on 28 Nov 2006, 21:19, edited 1 time in total.