2013 Malaysian GP - Sepang

[Cam]

I'll just leave this here...even though it will be conveniently ignored

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/93001

I must be missing something here. Webbers words certainly stated he hated team orders, his actions however, clearly showed he abides by them. The race result shows webber finished behind Vettel - as ordered.

What's the old saying about actions speak louder than....

How can you possibly be serious...completely ignored team orders, admitted to it and yet somehow Vettels disobeying is somehow worse. The only difference is that MW didn't have what it takes to get past SV in that race. He absolutely gave it a bash though and his intent was completely there. What MW has proved here is that although what SB did was ultimately wrong in so far as disobeying TO is that he is a huge hypocrite and so are all those who are bashing Seb for doing exactly what Mark tried to do but failed.

lol - did you hear the radio messages? Try again.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY[/youtube]

Horner: "to be clear Mark, maintain the gap".
Webber: "maintain the gap - yeah righto".

Mark heard the message and didn't overtake Vettel - which part of completely 'ignored team orders' are we missing here?

[raymondu999]

lol - did you hear the radio messages? Try again.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYPCS3VXxGY[/youtube]

Horner: "to be clear Mark, maintain the gap".
Webber: "maintain the gap - yeah righto".

Mark heard the message and didn't overtake Vettel - which part of completely 'ignored team orders' are we missing here?

It could be that something is lost in translation as I don't live in an English-speaking society, but I personally heard it as "maintain the gap? Yeah right mate." - the way you would say "yeah right" sarcastically.

[Mysticf1]

I'll leave you guys to argue out the merits of every word and every action.

I have a few thoughts about the matter I think are important, some people including the F1 media circus are talking about the need for points in what could be a very tight championship fight...those 7 points could be very important..but the undeniable fact of the matter is, Vettel's actions have driven a rather large wedge into the team dynamic, with teams so close this problem could be much more decisive than the 7 points gained yesterday. Vettel wasn't thinking of the long game and a rather large part of me hopes he pays the price for such a silly decision.

On the matter of Marks future, people are reading into his comments about thinking about his future, at this point in time I can't see how he can continue with the team next year, unless Redbull do something drastic to appease him, I doubt he will sign for next year. Would they even want him? Ofcoarse they would (prior to this incident ofcoarse) going into a season of such drastic change, driver continuity and experience would never have been so important. So what are his options? I see only 2 realistic and one outside possibility. Move to Lotus - I think the team would welcome him with open arms. Retire - I don't want to see this and i dont believe he wants to either. Like him or loath him, losing a top driver lessens the competition. and lastly and least likely he stays at Redbull.

Such a horrible and sad situation we find ourselves in..Vettels double speak about honesty just makes him look the fool ... the sport truly has been thrown into disrepute.

One last point, the tyres..In the past I have supported the Pirelli stratergy, but i fear things have gone a step to far..there needs to be a balance where drivers can still push.

[spadeflush]

Standings prior to 2011 British Grand Prix



With a 77-point lead, Vettel needed help against his teammate?

This.

There was no need of team orders there and yet he backed off. I dnt see the point in repeatedly justifying vettel's disobedience by giving the Silverstone example.

[Cam]

Although sarcastism is the basis of Australian humor, Mark is not that kind of guy. It also didn't sound like that to me. That said, only he knows for sure, but I'm confident it's a safe bet.

No-one is saying Mark is a saint, and certainly Brazil 2012 is a recent example of Him not entirely giving over completely, but I have not seen an example as clear as what Vettel did. There in-lies the distinction.

[sknguy]

This is from someone who knows little about the actual team dynamics within formula one teams... but it seems to me that a lot of the top teams have some pretty poor skills in terms of managing their drivers as people. And managing the competitive situations that they eventually, and even inevitably allow to develop.

If a company had a couple of coworkers arguing with each other in a meeting in front of some clients it would sure leave the impression that the organisation was some kind of Mickey Mouse operation. No offense intended there Mr. Mouse. But in this case, the argument unfortunately occurred on international television... an international stage for crying out loud. lol

Don't get me wrong. I certainly think that competition within any kind of team atmosphere can be a really healthy and motivational tool. But I don't understand the logic of allowing situations, and a team culture, to deteriorate in such a way that it allows over-the-top aggressive, and dangerous competitiveness. I know F1 teams have always had competitive teammates, take the Senna-Prost pairing. But mismanaging those kinds of situations is ultimately destructive for the team and the sport.

Ah well, if that's the kind of culture that Formula one wants who am I to say what they should do. But I hope they don't expect me to defend their playground antics to the uninitiated. I mean wow... is reality TV influencing Formula One television these days? Honestly though, that ranked up there among the most embarrassing races I've seen. Not quite 2005 USGP, but close

[Websta]

I'm surprised that Brazil 2011 hasn't come up yet.

Just adding fuel to the fire

[sAx]

On what Multi 21 actualy means.
Near the bottom of this page:
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/cars/red-bull-rb9/
On the steering wheel on the right is the Mult(i) octagon with number of 1-8. On the left there are the numbers 1 to x. Could (multi) 2-1 be a combination of these numbers a 2 on the left and a 1 on the right?

I think it's best to put the term in context and then we can see which makes more sense:

Multi 21 = Fuel Lean

Webber (angrily): "Fuel lean, Seb. Fuel lean". - maybe, doesn't really make sense.

Multi 21 = Adjust Bias

Webber (angrily): "Adjust bias, Seb. Adjust bias". - nope, don't think that's it.

Multi 21 = Hold Position

Webber (angrily): "Hold position, Seb. Hold position". - winner?

At what point do you arrive at axiomatic? Surely it is self-evident from RB's response that turning the wick down to the 'stroke it home setting', has same meaning as maintain position? There is no mileage left in this....Multi21....Multi21 ergo let's submit something else to analysis paralysis.

[Cam]

Just as your choice of words isn't 'self evident' neither is this. Until we know 100% either way, we're all, myself included, are guessing. To assume something is blinding clear for everyone, as you put it, puts forums redundant, don't you think?

[Maxion]

I feel that many people are missing quite a bit in this Red Bull drama. This thing didn't get this big just because Vettel disobeyed a team order and overtook Webber. This race was just the straw that broke the camels back. "Officially" Red Bull doesn't have a 1 & 2 driver but looking at how the team operates even a casual fan must see that the team constantly gives Vettel their preferences. This, in combination with Mark constantly getting berated by the management of the team in the press and how Vettel always gets praise must really start to annoy him.

As he said in the podium interview that "Vettel will get protection from the team" it really does sound like he thinks he's the #2 driver, and that this situation put it in stone. I wouldn't be surprised if Mark does something rash after this race.

[sAx]

Just as your choice of words isn't 'self evident' neither is this. Until we know 100% either way, we're all, myself included, are guessing. To assume something is blinding clear for everyone, as you put it, puts forums redundant, don't you think?

.....actually no! Redundancy is the circularity of the argument. The arbitor surely is Mr Horner himself? The instruction was given, Seb chose to ignore it, end of. Or are you now suggesting that you are the font of Mr Horner's wisdom? The story finished when the chequered flag dropped!

[raymondu999]

I was thinking. What if Multi 21 wasn't "hold position?"

Here's my reasoning:
- Vettel is not dumb. He's quite a smart cookie.
- The fact that Vettel used "misunderstood" as an excuse means that "Multi 21" could be something that is misunderstood.

I wonder if Multi 21, or whatever their pre-agreed plan was before the race, was basically to "tone the engine down and manage the tyres" - as opposed to "holding station."

Webber perhaps understood it as, "if both cars are managing tyres and engines, then we won't race each other."
Vettel perhaps understood it as, "tone the engine down, and manage the tyres."

I do not believe that Vettel is dumb enough to misunderstand "hold position" - nor do I think he is dumb enough to think that people will accept that he misunderstood "hold position."

[Maxion]

I was thinking. What if Multi 21 wasn't "hold position?"

Here's my reasoning:
- Vettel is not dumb. He's quite a smart cookie.
- The fact that Vettel used "misunderstood" as an excuse means that "Multi 21" could be something that is misunderstood.

I wonder if Multi 21, or whatever their pre-agreed plan was before the race, was basically to "tone the engine down and manage the tyres" - as opposed to "holding station."

Webber perhaps understood it as, "if both cars are managing tyres and engines, then we won't race each other."
Vettel perhaps understood it as, "tone the engine down, and manage the tyres."

I do not believe that Vettel is dumb enough to misunderstand "hold position" - nor do I think he is dumb enough to think that people will accept that he misunderstood "hold position."

Multi-21 most likely refers to MultiMap setting 21. It's a function of the Mclaren made ECU. More discussion about this in the RB car thread.

[Cam]

Just as your choice of words isn't 'self evident' neither is this. Until we know 100% either way, we're all, myself included, are guessing. To assume something is blinding clear for everyone, as you put it, puts forums redundant, don't you think?

.....actually no! Redundancy is the circularity of the argument. The arbitor surely is Mr Horner himself? The instruction was given, Seb chose to ignore it, end of. Or are you now suggesting that you are the font of Mr Horner's wisdom? The story finished when the chequered flag dropped!

How is trying to understand if a used term is an actual technical setting used on the car or a term used as code for team orders - redundant? Do you know for sure? If so, I'd love to see the evidence.

As for me being Horner's 'font of wisdom' - I will only reply

The story finished when the chequered flag dropped!

For you maybe. It's still making world wide news bulletins, even on my tv where I am now - plus on every major news and racing website. This story is just getting started. How you consider it being finished at the cheques flagged beggars believe, but that is your right.

I understand you're not into the discussion, you have your thoughts, you feel you have the right one - good for you - don't begrudge or belittle the others that still want more evidence than 'axiomatic'.

[Cam]

I was thinking. What if Multi 21 wasn't "hold position?"

Here's my reasoning:
- Vettel is not dumb. He's quite a smart cookie.
- The fact that Vettel used "misunderstood" as an excuse means that "Multi 21" could be something that is misunderstood.

I wonder if Multi 21, or whatever their pre-agreed plan was before the race, was basically to "tone the engine down and manage the tyres" - as opposed to "holding station."

Webber perhaps understood it as, "if both cars are managing tyres and engines, then we won't race each other."
Vettel perhaps understood it as, "tone the engine down, and manage the tyres."

I do not believe that Vettel is dumb enough to misunderstand "hold position" - nor do I think he is dumb enough to think that people will accept that he misunderstood "hold position."

You have a point and that certainly seems feasible. Then why did Mark feel so strongly the other way and the team state publicly that Vettel 'ignored' teams orders to stay put?

The only codes I can think were in there was the 'redundant and axiomatic' term Multi 21 - but I also heard 'front left' - now that term I've heard many times in the context of slowing down and cruising to finish. They definitely used it to Seb here, and they've used in many times in similar situations.

Maybe it's as simple as Vettel thinks he deserves it, so he takes it. Unless you get sacked - what does he have to loose?