JPM's NASCAR Revue

[Tom]

Ferraris, Chevrolets, they're all pretty crap really.

Cars that are the most fun usually won't exceed 120mph and will always surprise you by being able to fit at least 9 mates in/on it after a night out.

There's no denying that modern supercars are pretty bland to the point of being ugly. look at the classic le mans cars, the aggresive, low slung predators still make you wet yourself.

[Ray]

I can agree with that, somewhat, Tom. Thanks for your input by the way. The car that I ABSOLUTELY love to drive more than any other is my 1976 MGB. It runs rough, the brakes are almost nonexistant, I won't go over 50 mph for fear of not being able to stop, and it'll loop all the way around when you hit the ebrake real hard. I get scared every time I drive it. But aren't fun cars supposed to do that?

[Tom]

An MGB? Really? The ultimate in British Engineering and build quality at its worst. I've never experienced their ride but for a long time scrap yards were full of ones that were rusted beyond repair within a few years. Now adays there are a few really nice well kept ones and if you've got one then well done, but keep good care of it.

Yeah I suppose fun cars are meant to be like that, saddly MG Rover never really recovered and their cars are still aweful, mind you I wouldn't hesitate if you offered me a ZR for rallying, alot of fun I bet.

[Ciro Pabón]

Well, just to say to Reca that here in America we have an option for the Corvette, called the Lingenfelter 427 twin turbo... With that, you don't worry so much about tires.

Thanks for the Road & Track article. I wonder why they did not test the Golf HPA R32 (best bang for the buck?), the Viper 1100TT or the Mercedes GLK. They don't have so much sex-appeal but they seem nice cars to me.

I share Tom's and Ray point of view. My old Goat is funny when you wet the drum brakes. This thing weights like 120 imperial tonnes give or take a few (that's like 3 million grams, expressed in euros) and when the brakes are wet, I swear it has a system to increase the mass by 200%. It works wonders for your left foot braking!

[Ray]

The Lingenfelter 427 TT is the fastest car I know of 0-60. 1.97 seconds! Pretty fast car if you ask me.

My MGB is in decent shape. It's drives like it's on rails. Really not straight rails, but still fun. I love that car. It hadn't been cranked in over a year, and when I got out of the Marines I came home and it started on the FIRST twist of the key. I couldn't believe it. The carbs are crap and I want to get some Webber carbs and a crossflow head for it. In due time. I have to fix the brakes first. It would be a real shame to get it going fast and have to use a telephone pole to stop. I bet you know what i mean Ciro.

[Ciro Pabón]

The Lingenfelter is not exactly a car. It is an "option" you can put on top of the Corvette: it will cost you 10.000 euros for the basic kit, wich is only the price of 5 tire sets for the Ferrari. Yes, it is the fastest car in history in the quarter mile and 0-60 in the "Drag Times" worksheet I "translated" from Car & Driver.

My comments on the Corvette were a little tongue-in-cheek, as Reca knows. I admire european cars: I learned to drive in them and they handle superbly and the engineering and the way most manufacturers try hard to build new things is incredible. Wonders like the Golf and the 2CV are unthinkable in America. I just love to tease euro fans and find funny (or amazing) how hard and how costly is to get that extra 2 seconds that Road & Track reports. Anyway, you can find the "continent" of origin in the "Drag times" worksheet I link to: you'll see that with honorable exceptions at the top of the table (the exceptions Reca mentions), Europe dominates.

Anyway, I believe simplicity has its own "encanto" ("charm"?). Most european cars are impossible to tinker with and I've spent many happy hours with my tools and my american, some times horrible, some times oversimplified cars.

However, hey, the fastest race cars in the world are the american dragsters! This is the real "pinnacle of racing"... I only hope JPM drives one of them (another teaser )

[Ray]

I know the Lingenfelter isn't a car. It's a performance package. I'm no dummy. Nice point Ciro. Compare cars that aren't in the same league. Sure a Bugatti is faster than a Z06. It has four turbos and cost vastly more than a Z06. I sure hope it would be faster.

Euro cars are nice, but there isn't anything that they can do that any American car can't do. The LS7 V-8 in the Z06 is far simpler than a Ferrari or Bugatti, makes tremendous power, can be worked on by Sears bought tools in your drive way. Can't do that with a Ferrari or Bugatti. Cause they are too fragile.

I'm not going to argue Euro vs. American anymore. Everyone that supports Euro cars always seems to find a way to bring down American cars for whatever reason they can. The argument is always they are oversimplified and not sophisticated. If it works, WHO THE HELL CARES? Euro snobs, that's who and most of them can't change their own oil. So I don't hold them of high intelligence. I'm tired of hearing it. Euro cars are just as bad as American cars in certain areas. I don't care what anyone has to say about American cars because they are always crap to anyone that isn't American. I'm done.

Can we get back to the topic of JPM please?

[West]

While both good cars, I prefer the Z06. While a screaming Ferrari is music to my ears, hearing the C6R at ALMS is something totally different - especially compared to its high-revving competitors. I could care less about hp/liter because that doesn't win races. Not knocking the Ferrari but where I live (southern California) everybody has a European car and everybody pretends they're rich or successful because of it.

I bought my current car because of the speed, not a nice interior or anything. As long as the plastic looks decent and stays fit, I'll sacrifice luxury or looks for performance. I used to drive my mom's Lexus SUV... you get complacent to the interior after a while anyway.

[Carlos]

" Encanto" --(Charm) certainly begins to describe this word-- but do combine that with (enchantment) and we are approaching the combination of contentment and satisfied affection the word implies -- and I think that is what we are discussing. Both specie of car: Euro and American offer
Encanto -- The MGB in 1976 was well regaded in N America -- it rusted quickly -- our US cars rusted faster -- Euro spares are costly in N America. American spares are expensive in Europe --- having an MGB in N America today is Uber- chic -- if I may use a European expression -- the "tube" backbone chassis of the Vette is interesting --- as is the 4 valve head of a Ferrari -- but then the Toyota Camry 4 valve head is just as interesting -- which reminds me -- the Honda NSX -- by price is a steal -- but so is a Lotus Elise -- and the Lotus Esprit is a " price steal" in both Europe and N America -- especially the turbo unit -- but then a 70's era Mustang or Camaro-- with 302 CID and a minimum of suspension mods is rather interesting -- the TransAm " pony car" was quite interesting -- then we get cars the entire world curses -- the unrealized potential of the -- was it the Triumph TR8 --I mean the last Triumph sports car -- when was the Thunderbird a " sporting car" -- why did the rear suspension of my friend Phil's Jaguar XJ rust out at the chassis mounts -- why did it "burn and seize" a single cylinder out of 12? -- Why is this thread starting to resemble Talledega Nights or whatever that movie was -- American Good Ole Boys vs Euro Techno effetes -- lets get past the stereotypes -- lets get over ourselves -- a lot of countries equiailent is still an ox cart or a 3 wheel "tuk tuk' -- everycar has a character -- every person has a character -- each is unique -- each can't be compared -- I don't argue or insult Rob across the street who has an old MGB against my RX7 -- both are of similar vintage -- but different -- we are all lucky to have cars and drive -- you know -- the old " there are hungary children in India aurgument" parents everywhere use to get there kids to eat their vegetables -- the most thrilling driving experience I ever had was bearing down on a flooded bridge at night in an AMC with drum brakes -- hitting the water and ending up steering looking through the rear windshield--
never got that peak experience in my RX 7 --how about the time I passed a BMW Z4 (?) on the outside of an off ramp -- because it was driving at a snails pace -- and the police that saw it didn't write me a ticket -- that was a good day -- I was driving a Suzuki Swift Econobox-- actually driving my Subaru Chaser at the limit -- at 35 Klicks through a 90 degree cross street corner at the limit is a safe , slow experience -- back to NASCAR -- have you ever seen that roll cage chassis tube structure?-amazing-- aren't Nascar changining the rules and allowing chin splitters and rear spoilers? -- and how about the new IRL chassis that has some pretty good underbody areo -- what are we all going to do when the Chinese introduce supercars at half the cost of a Vette and one fifth of the cost of a Ferrari -- in my life time -- we just may run out of other countries cars and cultures to ridicule -- What are we going to do then -- start critisizing each other women? I like them all.

Regards Carlos-- What about that "pool our experience and opinions'
world wide F1tech project we been talking about for 2 or 43 years -- that might be fun where we can combine all the elements we havwe been discussing --- the one wher we brainstorm up a sportscar

[Carlos]

JPM had a Nascar Wreck?-- Didn't notice on the last couple pages. Lets start a New tread " What Car To Key ? Corvette or Ferrari ? "

Ragardds Carlos

[Ciro Pabón]

I know the Lingenfelter isn't a car. It's a performance package. I'm no dummy.

Sorry, Ray, no offense intended. "I knew you knew it", but then, some people around may not. I am not calling them dummies either, pleeze. And, besides, it is a good example of the "options" you have in this side of the pond. I can easily imagine this dialogue:

- "What do you think of racing tires for my new car?"
- "Nahhhh, don't be a sissy... let's put a 7 liter 'regular engine' under the hood."
- "What about a turbo?"
- "Better make it two."
- "Where? Do we go to the dealer's garage?"
- "Are you mad? I have a friend that has an empty space in his garage and an engine crane, let's do it... That will fix the handling!" (smile, Reca).

About JPM's crash (I love this kind of "switching gears" threads!), the commentators did not seem worried about the fiery fire.

Impressions on Juan Montoya's debut:

Dave Rodman: "NASCAR needs to put spring-loaded panels in select walls at different racetracks. If a car hits 'em -- boom! Up pops a sponsor's billboard -- instant exposure."

Ryan Smithson: "He looked really good in the car. He raced side-by-side with people all day and did well. I wish I had walked over and looked at how he pitted the car."

Well, JPM jumped out of a car engulfed in flames and all they seem to be thinking about are his abilities to pit.... weird. I guess that would have launched a major investigation about tank safety, if this had happened in F1.

BTW, does anybody knows what are the fine points of pitting in NASCAR?

[Tom]

Euro cars are nice, but there isn't anything that they can do that any American car can't do.

How about 30mpg

The thing i don't like about the average American car is it has no real engineering behind it. Even Rover came up with hydroelastic suspension in the 80s but American cars tend to be a poorly thought out engine bolted to a ridiculously heavy chassis plopped onto a set of wheels with some vauge excuse for suspension thrown in between. It of course has huge potential in terms of tuning, but really only because the factory setting is so basic. Look at most of the things you'd put on a high performance American machine and notice that Euro cars already have most of it already.

Also Ray

The Lingenfelter 427 TT is the fastest car I know of 0-60. 1.97 seconds! Pretty fast car if you ask me.

you're getting confused between speed and acceleration mate, acceleration really has no bearing on overall top speed. For example a Bond Bug, with its motrbike engine, might well out accelerate my ZX put I'd be surprised if it came close to its overall top speed.

[Carlos]

Tom -- the aluminum V8 Rover used for years was a N American General Motors powerplant Rover bought the rights to manufacture -- it was actually developed in the 1960's -- the same motor was the basis of the Repco Brabham V8, when Jack Brabham won the WDC in the first year of the 3 litre F1 formula-- I've got a soft spot for 3 wheel vehicles and I love Econobox cars.

Regards Carlos

[Ciro Pabón]

Euro cars are nice, but there isn't anything that they can do that any American car can't do.

How about 30mpg ...

... American cars tend to be a poorly thought out engine bolted to a ridiculously heavy chassis plopped onto a set of wheels with some vague excuse for suspension thrown in between.

Thanks for the hearty laugh, Tom. Anyway, here you have a short list of "american's first" in mechanical engineering.

Telescopic shock absorber, 1901, C. Horock
Interchangeable parts, Ray Olds of Oldsmobile fame, 1901
Electric starter, Charles Kettering, 1911
Assembly line, Ford engineers, 1913
Steel Body, Budd company, 1914 (for Dodge)
Power steering, Francis Davis, 1926
Flashing turning lights, made by a company in Delaware, 1935
Air conditioning, Nash company, 1939
Jeep, Karl Pabst, 1940
Automatic transmission, Oldsmobile, 1940
Cruise control, Ralph Teeter, 1950
PCV Valve, american company (don't know which one), around 1963
Energy policy, American Congress, 1992

Not a very good list, specially on recent years, but...

[Tom]

Oops, seem to have upset some people.

Not entirely sure what you mean Carlos,

Ciro, apart from telescopic shock absorbers, the Assembly line (Ford actually stole this idea from a slaughterhouse) and Interchangeable parts all these you mentioned are only adaptations of part already found. They are designed to make life easier (or in some cases lazier) while the old system was still sound.

OK, electric starter, now thats a good plan, we all have them and it sure beats turning a handle.
Steel bodies, Cars had steel bodies long before 1914, even the Model T in 1908.
Power Steering, Hydraguide was actually Power assisted steering, is just an adaption of standard rack and pinion. Sure it reduces fatigue but also driver feedback.
Flashing turning lights, now thats just showing off. We used to have little wooden arms that came out the side, now that was cool.
Air con, heavy powerful and useless in half of Europe anyway.
Jeep? Jeep? are you kidding? you can keep them.
Auto tranny, now your just being lazy.
Cruise Control, ditto.
PCV valves, OK, I'll give you that one.
Energy policy, what's this? Anymore detail?

You caught me at a bad day for an argument gentlemen, I haven't time to go into much detail. I'll be on tommorrow.