Learn about Racing Tires

[Gleippz911]

Hey Guys,
I found this site a few weeks ago and it is very interesting to learn about the technical background of F1 and motorsports.
I am studying mechanical engineering in Germany and besides I am working at a VLN and FIA GT Series Team and now starting to do the tires job.
So I want to learn as much as possible about racing tires, how they work, how to read and understand them, how to make the right choices and changes to solve a problem or improve the setup.
I have a book about race cars technology with articles about tires but I am looking for more in the internet. May somebody has an advise for me where I can find other books/videos/articles about tires in motorsports? Would be very great if you can help me, it only should be in English or German.
Thanks and cheers,

Thomas

[Jersey Tom]

First step might be to talk to the engineers from the tire company that supplies your product.

Otherwise though, it would help if you had specific questions. People may be able to help with those better than just "spilling the beans" as it were.

In any event, IMO there are few global truths when it comes to race tires - or tires in general. Lot of BS that makes its way around, gets repeated enough times and people believe it's a universal truth. Generally I find those who are blatantly the most outspoken with "this is how it is" tend to be the most full of it.

But that's just my take.

[Lycoming]

Any specific pieces of BS that particularly stand out or are especially common? or are most of them just properties of specific tires that get espoused as universal rules that describe all tires?

[Jersey Tom]

Any specific pieces of BS that particularly stand out or are especially common?

There are.

or are most of them just properties of specific tires that get espoused as universal rules that describe all tires?

A lot is this. Same can be said of many topics for that matter, outside of tires. Someone makes a handful of narrow observations about 'X' and then assumes they just hold true everywhere...

[marcush.]

JT -that was great...
I have a little anecdote to supply :
Back in 2007 I was engineering a few Ferrari F430 in Coppa Shell and Trofeo Pirelli ...and I thought I pay a visit to the Pirelli engineers in the paddock when starting out .
That visit was really an eye opener....My request for information resulted in handing out a copy of their mandated minimum cold pressure for wet and dry tyres -which were exactly the same...
and the information to do two slow laps and then go as quick as possible afterwards.There was NO further information available .when asking them to check my pressure gauge with theirs for correlation they came up with a 2€ precision instrument you would expect to receive as a promotional gift at tyre rack maybe..Not to mention they were not prepared to supply a scribbling pad to monitor the tyre pressures /temps ....additional information was refused with the words :it´s a spec tyre and they are all the same....

[Jersey Tom]

Engineering support from some tire companies is better than others then!

[Gleippz911]

OK, thanks for the advises, guys. I think its almost with all topics and things in the world, there are always "false truths" and "legends', which many people believe and think its right. But its almost impossible to prevent it.

Nevertheless, if you know any videos / books / internet sites that could help me only a little bit, I would appreciate it.

[Jersey Tom]

Nevertheless, if you know any videos / books / internet sites that could help me only a little bit, I would appreciate it.

I feel like it would still really help to be more specific to your role and responsibilities on your team, and what it is you're trying to learn. Specific questions.

Videos and websites on the topic though? I can't really think of any. If you want some fundamental information, NHTSA freely distributes The Pneumatic Tire. There's also Tire and Vehicle Dynamics which covers some more fundamentals, and aspects of math modeling. But both of those may be way outside the scope of the responsibilities of a race team's tire specialist. There's The Racing & High Performance Tire: Using Tires to Tune for Grip & Balance which a lot of people seem to like - I personally don't. If you want to get into giving good advice on setup changes you need to have some background in chassis engineering and vehicle dynamics. There are the ubiquitous Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (a fairly fundamental level brain dump) and Tune to Win. Or if you want to really go off the deep end you could read up on The Multibody Systems Approach to Vehicle Dynamics.

Beyond "books" there are technical and research papers ranging from Theory of Rubber Friction and Contact Mechanics to a slew of purchasable papers at the SAE website..

With all that said, IMO if you just dive into all that crap at once you're going to suffer from paralysis of analysis, it won't be value-added / effective use of your time, and you'll gain no performance on track. In all seriousness - I'll let you in on a little trade secret - I think the best "book" you can pick up is this. (Or if you're more like me, download this for use on something like this or this). There's a premium on people with experience - gotta go out and get it.

[Gleippz911]

Thank you very much!
As I said I am studying mechanical engineering and momentarily only in the 2nd semester, so my knowledge isnt that huge at the moment. Because of this I was asking for some literature to just get into the secrets of tires a litte bit more because in the future I will have to decide (with the advises of our tire manufacturer) which tire and which pressures we drive during a race weekend.

Well, in regards to your last advise, it looks like I am doing everything right, because a few days ago I started to write down all important things I learned last year into a notebook

Anyway, thanks for your help!

[Jersey Tom]

Because of this I was asking for some literature to just get into the secrets of tires a litte bit more because in the future I will have to decide (with the advises of our tire manufacturer) which tire and which pressures we drive during a race weekend.

Secrets are secrets for a reason Definitely keep up a good notebook, and be a skeptic. When I was working in a machine shop, the first bit of advice the older timer there gave me was, "Don't trust anything/anyone, check it yourself first." Holds true as much for checking whether a mill head is in tram or what your best air pressures are on a racecar. Take what information you can get, but it's a starting point - not quite the gospel.

[g-force_addict]

Hey Guys,
I found this site a few weeks ago and it is very interesting to learn about the technical background of F1 and motorsports.
I am studying mechanical engineering in Germany and besides I am working at a VLN and FIA GT Series Team and now starting to do the tires job.
So I want to learn as much as possible about racing tires, how they work, how to read and understand them, how to make the right choices and changes to solve a problem or improve the setup.
I have a book about race cars technology with articles about tires but I am looking for more in the internet. May somebody has an advise for me where I can find other books/videos/articles about tires in motorsports? Would be very great if you can help me, it only should be in English or German.
Thanks and cheers,

Thomas

You can begin with the fact that radial racing tires aren't really radial tires at all.
They are actually bias ply tires. Although their ply angle is smaller than tires marketed as bias ply tires.

Then you can dig into bias-ply vs true radials deformation and properties.

[Raw Data]

Some great comments from JT in here. Wish I would have heard these secrets while I was in College! I raced a spec class car and became friends with one of the top tuners for the series. Visited his shop worked alongside him etc. His cars always win or finished top 3.

This class runs on a treaded tire that is allowed to be cut. I always thought with my ME degree maybe I could help him in some way. Boy was I wrong. He is a high school drop out, has never read any racing books. But he has so much experience with these cars and tires it is just priceless.

He knows one thing. Trial and Error. He has a very large notebook. It has gotten him very far.

[MikeMargarido]

In any event, IMO there are few global truths when it comes to race tires - or tires in general. Lot of BS that makes its way around, gets repeated enough times and people believe it's a universal truth. Generally I find those who are blatantly the most outspoken with "this is how it is" tend to be the most full of it.

I'm new here, though I have been following these forums for years. It has frequently provided good reads on tires and vehicle dynamics.

From what I have seen through the years, what you say above applies perfectly to you - in particular in regards to tire models (ISIMotor2, iRacing).

I fully agree with you, though. The most adamant, self-assured individuals usually have no regard for the opinions of others; I have found they're little more than inflated balloons.

This class runs on a treaded tire that is allowed to be cut. I always thought with my ME degree maybe I could help him in some way. Boy was I wrong. He is a high school drop out, has never read any racing books. But he has so much experience with these cars and tires it is just priceless.

He knows one thing. Trial and Error. He has a very large notebook. It has gotten him very far.

Trial and Error will only carry you so far - simply not possible to have tested all compounds, all types of tires on all types of cars. Intuition (or some form of extrapolation) does not work always, does not yield positive results the whole time.

As things become more complex, true knowledge (always a result of books + research + life experience) is irreplaceable and turns out to be the deciding factor in success. In particular in motorsports.

[Lycoming]

Trial and error will get you pretty damn far. But proper engineering analysis techniques will get you just as far (or farther) with a smaller expenditure of time and money. Still, it's a perfectly valid approach for a lot of things, you just won't see it used exclusively in the highest echelons of any technological industry.

[Jersey Tom]

In any event, IMO there are few global truths when it comes to race tires - or tires in general. Lot of BS that makes its way around, gets repeated enough times and people believe it's a universal truth. Generally I find those who are blatantly the most outspoken with "this is how it is" tend to be the most full of it.

I'm new here, though I have been following these forums for years. It has frequently provided good reads on tires and vehicle dynamics.

From what I have seen through the years, what you say above applies perfectly to you - in particular in regards to tire models (ISIMotor2, iRacing).

I fully agree with you, though. The most adamant, self-assured individuals usually have no regard for the opinions of others; I have found they're little more than inflated balloons.

You'd have to elaborate as I don't follow to some degree, not sure whether or not you're insulting me, agreeing with me, or both!

In any event, people working in racing or other high performance "on the edge" fields can certainly be quite blunt, adamant, pointed, or self assured. Attracts some Type A personalities, and when you've "seen something with your own eyes" and feel confident in it, well - how can one argue with results? But there is a fine line between "X is the [only] solution" and "X has always worked for me in situation Y, here's how and why I think it pertains to situation Z." Or even more so, there's a big difference between passing along your own individual experience, and regurgitating the experience or comments of others in different situations. The latter drives me nuts.

This class runs on a treaded tire that is allowed to be cut. I always thought with my ME degree maybe I could help him in some way. Boy was I wrong. He is a high school drop out, has never read any racing books. But he has so much experience with these cars and tires it is just priceless.

He knows one thing. Trial and Error. He has a very large notebook. It has gotten him very far.

Trial and Error will only carry you so far - simply not possible to have tested all compounds, all types of tires on all types of cars. Intuition (or some form of extrapolation) does not work always, does not yield positive results the whole time.

As things become more complex, true knowledge (always a result of books + research + life experience) is irreplaceable and turns out to be the deciding factor in success. In particular in motorsports.

I would agree with Lycoming that trial and error, aka build and test or whatever you want to call it, can get you quite far. Sometimes it's the only thing that can get you anywhere. Books and publications... in find that there are few which are cutting edge, particularly in racing. People and companies like to hold onto their IP and competitive advantage. "High level" research, you may or may not have the resources to pursue. But you can always go out and try to learn something when you turn laps.